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From: uakci <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 17:54:35 +0200
Message-ID: <CACtk4+D1UkmCm8pxoS-94KtAaaSeJHKh30TFc1887gPh+-9fwQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Why do selbri imply place structure?
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On Aug 19, 2016 5:23 PM, <collin.damskov@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I don't know a whole lot about lojban, but it seems to me that it would
be difficult to learn simply because each selbri has its own implied place
structures.

This is required, because in predicate logic, on which Lojban's built, the
'places' are predefined. It's the natural language's thing to have all
predicates have 1, 2 or 3 places, sometimes supplying others with
prepositions. In Lojban, all essential things in a relation are packed into
the selbri.

> Is there no way to encode place structure by using a particle or
something without reducing grammatical ambiguity?

1) You can define a predicate on your own, for example:

=C2=ABlo ka ce'u ce'u ce'u broda cu ka ce'u zukte ce'u se va'u ce'u=C2=BB
the property-of x1 x2 x3 broda (=3D the predicate defined) is-the-property-=
of
x1 doing x2 for x3

After that, you can use your shiny new =C2=ABbroda=C2=BB.

2) You can use tags (kind of preposition), or make them on the fly. For
example, =C2=ABgau=C2=BB =3D 'done by ...' could be used like this:

=C2=ABgau mi do na xagji=C2=BB
with-doer you, I not hungry
(You made me not hungry)

You didn't need to make a new selbri!

As for 'creating on the fly', =C2=ABfi'o=C2=BB is your choice. =C2=ABfi'o=
=C2=BB followed by a
selbri creates a tag. It rips out the place signified by the selbri, and
allows you to use it elsewhere. For example, =C2=ABfi'o se cidja=C2=BB will=
 rip out
the cidja2 (the thing/person to which cidja1 is food), and I can use it as

=C2=ABti nanba fi'o se cidja mi=C2=BB
this is-bread with-potential-eater me
This is a bread being food to me.

> Why do it this way instead of something that doesn't require such intense
memorization of place structures?

First of all, in natural languages, you find yourself having cases. This is
fine and all, but the cases' usage is ambiguous, and you'd have to memorize
which case to use in which situation, or even whole phrases with cases
totally unrelated. Lojban simply numbers the 'cases'.

Secondly, it's not intense. Most gismu follow a pattern (e.g. plants and
animals: x1 is a * of species x2). Most gismu have the essential things
only, and order them by importance. Only a small bunch of gismu will cause
trouble; the rest is predictable.

> Am I missing something important here?

Hope you no longer do.

=E2=80=94 mi'e la uakci mu'o =E2=80=94

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<p dir=3D"ltr"></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">On Aug 19, 2016 5:23 PM, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:collin.damsko=
v@gmail.com">collin.damskov@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I don&#39;t know a whole lot about lojban, but it seems to me that it =
would be difficult to learn simply because each selbri has its own implied =
place structures.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">This is required, because in predicate logic, on which Lojba=
n&#39;s built, the &#39;places&#39; are predefined. It&#39;s the natural la=
nguage&#39;s thing to have all predicates have 1, 2 or 3 places, sometimes =
supplying others with prepositions. In Lojban, all essential things in a re=
lation are packed into the selbri.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; Is there no way to encode place structure by using a pa=
rticle or something without reducing grammatical ambiguity?=C2=A0</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">1) You can define a predicate on your own, for example:</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=ABlo ka ce&#39;u ce&#39;u ce&#39;u broda cu ka ce&#39;u =
zukte ce&#39;u se va&#39;u ce&#39;u=C2=BB<br>
the property-of x1 x2 x3 broda (=3D the predicate defined) is-the-property-=
of x1 doing x2 for x3</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">After that, you can use your shiny new =C2=ABbroda=C2=BB.</p=
>
<p dir=3D"ltr">2) You can use tags (kind of preposition), or make them on t=
he fly. For example, =C2=ABgau=C2=BB =3D &#39;done by ...&#39; could be use=
d like this:</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=ABgau mi do na xagji=C2=BB<br>
with-doer you, I not hungry<br>
(You made me not hungry)</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">You didn&#39;t need to make a new selbri!</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">As for &#39;creating on the fly&#39;, =C2=ABfi&#39;o=C2=BB i=
s your choice. =C2=ABfi&#39;o=C2=BB followed by a selbri creates a tag. It =
rips out the place signified by the selbri, and allows you to use it elsewh=
ere. For example, =C2=ABfi&#39;o se cidja=C2=BB will rip out the cidja2 (th=
e thing/person to which cidja1 is food), and I can use it as</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=ABti nanba fi&#39;o se cidja mi=C2=BB<br>
this is-bread with-potential-eater me<br>
This is a bread being food to me.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; Why do it this way instead of something that doesn&#39;=
t require such intense memorization of place structures?=C2=A0</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">First of all, in natural languages, you find yourself having=
 cases. This is fine and all, but the cases&#39; usage is ambiguous, and yo=
u&#39;d have to memorize which case to use in which situation, or even whol=
e phrases with cases totally unrelated. Lojban simply numbers the &#39;case=
s&#39;.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Secondly, it&#39;s not intense. Most gismu follow a pattern =
(e.g. plants and animals: x1 is a * of species x2). Most gismu have the ess=
ential things only, and order them by importance. Only a small bunch of gis=
mu will cause trouble; the rest is predictable.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; Am I missing something important here?</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Hope you no longer do.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=E2=80=94 mi&#39;e la uakci mu&#39;o =E2=80=94</p>

<p></p>

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