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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Why do selbri imply place structure?
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
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From: "Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG" <lojbab@lojban.org>
Organization: The Logical Language Group, Inc.
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Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 16:01:02 -0400
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On 8/19/2016 11:13 AM, collin.damskov@gmail.com wrote:
> I don't know a whole lot about lojban, but it seems to me that it would
> be difficult to learn simply because each selbri has its own implied
> place structures. Is there no way to encode place structure by using a
> particle or something without reducing grammatical ambiguity? Why do it
> this way instead of something that doesn't require such intense
> memorization of place structures? Am I missing something important here?


selbri place structures, which are ideosyncratic to each selbri (with 
some patterns among related selbri, and fairly systematic patterns for 
selbri compounds)

correspond fairly closely in function if not in nature with

English prepositions, the meaning of each is ideosyncratic to each verb 
in which they are attached (with some patterns among related verbs, 
although it can be hard to learn and recognize these patterns as part of 
learning English), with the complication that any given verb may have 
multiple meanings, wherein the preposition changes meaning in a 
different context even for the same word.

No matter what method is used, prepositions, place structures, or 
something else, there is the need to encode/associate phrases/clauses 
with the main predicate/verb/core of the sentence.  The variety of 
encodings and associations that are needed are inherent to the context 
of the sentence, and relatively independent of the language that has to 
communicate those associations.

Lojban can attach sumti (phrases) using particles like prepositions, but 
for the most useful (those defined by the place structure), the speaker 
has the option of doing without.  Thus what you are seeing as a weakness 
that replaces a system you are comfortable with, it is actually a 
strength that adds to what you are comfortable with.  But of course the 
most common and useful attachings for any given selbri are the ones tied 
to the place structure, so beginners rarely see Lojban sentences with 
particle tags that correspond to English prepositions.

Now it turns out that English, in addition to prepositions, has for some 
words prepositionless attachings that work like place structures.  An 
easy example is "John gives the book to Mary" or "John gives to Mary the 
book", or "John gives Mary the book".  The first two have a preposition 
attaching the one of the three phrases, and the last one looks like a 
Lojban selbri with no particles.  So Lojban isn't actually much 
different from English for some sentences.

And in English (and most though not all other natural languages), in the 
typical sentence, there is no particle attaching the subject to the 
verb/predicate, and thus ALL normal English sentences are partially like 
Lojban sentences, but only with the first (subject) phrase.  And really 
it is no harder to learn Lojban place structures (with and without tags) 
than the English "phrase-attachment structures" (with or without 
prepositions).

lojbab


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