Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c07::236;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <a0c4776a-2d57-7d2b-b4e1-383e7e1eb9ca@lojban.org>
References: <54465f94-703e-48f8-8d8b-b0a1622c0ce0@googlegroups.com>
 <d5426e3f-b453-44c2-940a-97424a8f2a4f@googlegroups.com> <CACtk4+AXisszv3_nE+m0tbQouUg5BMmddfeWAo+hGAAv7D7Utw@mail.gmail.com>
 <a0c4776a-2d57-7d2b-b4e1-383e7e1eb9ca@lojban.org>
From: uakci <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2016 02:36:20 +0200
Message-ID: <CACtk4+DbPeHBFEnLqUBeUPWyb6XQkghDy-vZ0iCOoqqzhy6gnw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Is Lojban actually learnable?
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11408614899cd7053ab25ab9
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: -1.8
X-Spam_score_int: -17
X-Spam_bar: -

--001a11408614899cd7053ab25ab9
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Aug 22, 2016 10:25 PM, "Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG" <
lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
>
> On 8/22/2016 1:27 PM, gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Em segunda-feira, 22 de agosto de 2016 12:45:16 UTC+3, la uakci escreveu:
>>
>>     Nah, I'm doing it for 1 year and I feel very close to fluency. *sei
>>     tolcumla*
>>
>>
>> Nope. la uakci learnt it in just 4 months to kinda fluency (vague term
>> but who asks for standardized test?). Proved by logs.

za'a bu'o .u'e se'i
I remember reading through L4B in August '15; now I'm reading through
December's logs and I have to say I can't disagree. Thanks, Gleki for
pointing this out.

>
>
> Nick Nicolas in 1991 spent only a weekend reading everything we had then
(long before CLL was written), and was writing better translations than
anyone else up to that point almost immediately.  He wasn't yet "fluent",
but I suspect that many of his translations still stand up 25 years later
(at least if one corrects for the rafsi changes, since most of those
translations predate the rafsi reassignment and other baselining efforts in
the 1992-1994 timeframe.

Hmm, interesting. No doubt that a person like him can grasp the concepts of
Lojban immediately (well, almost). Congrats to him anyway.

>
> Nick had considerable experience in learning languages, which certainly
made a difference.  But the bottom line is that young kids learn languages
almost automatically; adults have to work at it.

Does that mean I didn't work while learning? *sei za'ei nitpike*

> But if you do work at it, and are willing to accept a period of making
lots of mistakes and learning from them, pretty much anyone can gain
competency.

I think that many stop learning because they feel helplessness towards
solving their errors which, to them, seem to pop up in every sentence. Yes,
one has to be patient and willing to go through. (I remembered myself being
in a bad mood because of feeling totally horrible at Lojban...)

> (I myself am NOT a good language learner, and will probably never speak
Lojban fluently - I'm past 60 years old - but I still was able to muddle
through a conversation and could translate a text with word lookup
capability handy (but when I was actively conversing, I generally did NOT
stop to look up gismu - I made mistakes and learned from people failing to
understand me.)
>
> lojbab

~ mi'e zi'o

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--001a11408614899cd7053ab25ab9
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<p dir=3D"ltr"></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">On Aug 22, 2016 10:25 PM, &quot;Bob LeChevalier, President a=
nd Founder - LLG&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojbab@lojban.org">lojbab@lojb=
an.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On 8/22/2016 1:27 PM, <a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com">gl=
eki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Em segunda-feira, 22 de agosto de 2016 12:45:16 UTC+3, la uakci es=
creveu:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Nah, I&#39;m doing it for 1 year and I feel very clo=
se to fluency. *sei<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 tolcumla*<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Nope. la uakci learnt it in just 4 months to kinda fluency (vague =
term<br>
&gt;&gt; but who asks for standardized test?). Proved by logs.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">za&#39;a bu&#39;o .u&#39;e se&#39;i<br>
I remember reading through L4B in August &#39;15; now I&#39;m reading throu=
gh December&#39;s logs and I have to say I can&#39;t disagree. Thanks, Glek=
i for pointing this out.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Nick Nicolas in 1991 spent only a weekend reading everything we had th=
en (long before CLL was written), and was writing better translations than =
anyone else up to that point almost immediately.=C2=A0 He wasn&#39;t yet &q=
uot;fluent&quot;, but I suspect that many of his translations still stand u=
p 25 years later (at least if one corrects for the rafsi changes, since mos=
t of those translations predate the rafsi reassignment and other baselining=
 efforts in the 1992-1994 timeframe.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Hmm, interesting. No doubt that a person like him can grasp =
the concepts of Lojban immediately (well, almost). Congrats to him anyway.<=
/p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt;<br>
&gt; Nick had considerable experience in learning languages, which certainl=
y made a difference.=C2=A0 But the bottom line is that young kids learn lan=
guages almost automatically; adults have to work at it.=C2=A0</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Does that mean I didn&#39;t work while learning? *sei za&#39=
;ei nitpike*</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; But if you do work at it, and are willing to accept a p=
eriod of making lots of mistakes and learning from them, pretty much anyone=
 can gain competency.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I think that many stop learning because they feel helplessne=
ss towards solving their errors which, to them, seem to pop up in every sen=
tence. Yes, one has to be patient and willing to go through. (I remembered =
myself being in a bad mood because of feeling totally horrible at Lojban...=
)</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; (I myself am NOT a good language learner, and will prob=
ably never speak Lojban fluently - I&#39;m past 60 years old - but I still =
was able to muddle through a conversation and could translate a text with w=
ord lookup capability handy (but when I was actively conversing, I generall=
y did NOT stop to look up gismu - I made mistakes and learned from people f=
ailing to understand me.)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; lojbab</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">~ mi&#39;e zi&#39;o</p>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;Lojban Beginners&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lo=
jban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-beginners@goo=
glegroups.com">lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban-begin=
ners">https://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

--001a11408614899cd7053ab25ab9--