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From: "Mike S." <maikxlx@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2017 23:57:42 -0500
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] The pronunciation of "o"
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The underlying reason of your confusion, I believe, is that there is no
consistent vowel sound that can be heard across all of the world's English
dialects (or even just the major ones) that is closely equivalent to the
Lojban "o".  All the English vowels near "o" tend to be weird in one way or
another, varying, merging, diphthongizing, etc.  So Lojban guide authors
are naturally and understandably hesitant to give a precise "this is it"
definition for "o" to English speakers.

If you know any Spanish, then Spanish "o" is fine.  If you know the two
Italian "o" sounds, or the two (Parisian) French ones, or the two
(Standard) German ones, aim for the middle of any of those pairs.  These
are close; Japanese "o" is also close.  Lojban's "o" is actually more
international than English's approximations.

As a northeast American English speaker myself, I would say if you know how
northeast Americans tend to pronounce the "o" in "coffee" (AW not AH), then
say that vowel, but make it nice and "round" with the lips.  Otherwise, say
a long-o sound as in "boat" and try to drop the useless "w" sound at the
end of that sound.  That's tricky; you will need pay attention to your
natural tendencies.  With practice, it's doable.

On Sat, Feb 25, 2017 at 10:08 AM, <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> Em s=C3=A1bado, 25 de fevereiro de 2017 12:44:54 UTC+3, selpa'i escreveu:
>>
>> I understand your confusion. All of this could have been avoided if the
>> pages had used IPA or linked to sound recordings.
>>
>
> If la cirkotci incorrectly utters {o} then we need a new recording.
>
>
>>
>> Lojban {o} can be pronounced as either IPA [o]
>> (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Close-m
>> id_back_rounded_vowel.ogg)
>> or IPA [=C9=94]
>> (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Open-mi
>> d_back_rounded_vowel.ogg).
>>
>>
>> The diphthong in "boat","throat" etc. should not be used for {o}.
>>
>> ~~~mi'e la solpa'i
>>
>> ---
>> Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr=C3=BCft.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>
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--=20
co ma'a mke

Xorban blog: Xorban.wordpress.com <http://xorban.wordpress.com/>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>The underlying reason of your confusion, I believe, i=
s that there is no consistent vowel sound that can be heard across all of t=
he world&#39;s English dialects (or even just the major ones) that is close=
ly equivalent to the Lojban &quot;o&quot;.=C2=A0 All the English vowels nea=
r &quot;o&quot; tend to be weird in one way or another, varying, merging, d=
iphthongizing, etc.=C2=A0 So Lojban guide authors are naturally and underst=
andably hesitant to give a precise &quot;this is it&quot; definition for &q=
uot;o&quot; to English speakers.<br><br></div>If you know any Spanish, then=
 Spanish &quot;o&quot; is fine.=C2=A0 If you know the two Italian &quot;o&q=
uot; sounds, or the two (Parisian) French ones, or the two (Standard) Germa=
n ones, aim for the middle of any of those pairs.=C2=A0 These are close; Ja=
panese &quot;o&quot; is also close.=C2=A0 Lojban&#39;s &quot;o&quot; is act=
ually more international than English&#39;s approximations.<br><div><div><b=
r>As a northeast American English speaker myself, I would say if you know h=
ow northeast Americans tend to pronounce the &quot;o&quot; in &quot;coffee&=
quot; (AW not AH), then say that vowel, but make it nice and &quot;round&qu=
ot; with the lips.=C2=A0 Otherwise, say a long-o sound as in &quot;boat&quo=
t; and try to drop the useless &quot;w&quot; sound at the end of that sound=
.=C2=A0 That&#39;s tricky; you will need pay attention to your natural tend=
encies.=C2=A0 With practice, it&#39;s doable.<br></div></div></div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Feb 25, 2017 at 1=
0:08 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span class=3D""><br><br>Em s=
=C3=A1bado, 25 de fevereiro de 2017 12:44:54 UTC+3, selpa&#39;i  escreveu:<=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I understand your confusion. All of =
this could have been avoided if the=20
<br>pages had used IPA or linked to sound recordings.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>If la cirkotci incorrectly utte=
rs {o} then we need a new recording.</div><span class=3D""><div>=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>Lojban {o} can be pronounced as either IPA [o]=20
<br>(<a href=3D"https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Close-m=
id_back_rounded_vowel.ogg" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://uploa=
d.wikimedia.org/<wbr>wikipedia/commons/8/84/Close-m<wbr>id_back_rounded_vow=
el.ogg</a>)=20
<br>or IPA [=C9=94]=20
<br>(<a href=3D"https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Open-mi=
d_back_rounded_vowel.ogg" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://upload=
.wikimedia.org/<wbr>wikipedia/commons/0/02/Open-mi<wbr>d_back_rounded_vowel=
.ogg</a>).=20
<br>
<br>
<br>The diphthong in &quot;boat&quot;,&quot;throat&quot; etc. should not be=
 used for {o}.
<br>
<br>~~~mi&#39;e la solpa&#39;i
<br>
<br>---
<br>Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr=C3=BCft.
<br><a href=3D"https://www.avast.com/antivirus" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"=
_blank">https://www.avast.com/antiviru<wbr>s</a>
<br>
<br></blockquote></span></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/<wbr>optout</a>.<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">co ma&#39;a mke<br>=
<br>Xorban blog: <a href=3D"http://xorban.wordpress.com/" target=3D"_blank"=
>Xorban.wordpress.com</a><br>My LL blog: <a href=3D"http://loglang.wordpres=
s.com/" target=3D"_blank">Loglang.wordpress.com</a> <br></div>
</div>

<p></p>

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