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[2607:f8b0:4003:c06::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p186si1125986itc.2.2017.05.15.03.19.59 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 15 May 2017 03:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c06::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4003:c06::233; Received: by mail-oi0-x233.google.com with SMTP id h4so124547646oib.3 for ; Mon, 15 May 2017 03:19:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.157.9.177 with SMTP id q46mr2186288otd.50.1494843599490; Mon, 15 May 2017 03:19:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.40.200 with HTTP; Mon, 15 May 2017 03:19:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Michael Turniansky Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 06:19:19 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] {za'a} To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113e4516be13c2054f8d65ef" X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c06::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mturniansky@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -4.6 (----) X-Spam_score: -4.6 X-Spam_score_int: -45 X-Spam_bar: ---- --001a113e4516be13c2054f8d65ef Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Correct. The concept of evidentials was borrowed directly from L=C3=A1ada= n, and indirectly from some Native American languages, which require you to transmit information on how you know something to be true. za'a is in that family, and there is no reason for the information you are reporting on has to be occurring while you are reporting on it. --gejyspa On Sun, May 14, 2017 at 5:00 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote: > > > On Sun, May 14, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Ilmen wrote: > >> Does {za'a} imply that the event described by the sentence is witnessed >> at the very time of utterance, or does it simply means that the informat= ion >> comes from direct personal experience (directly/sensorily witnessed), ev= en >> if in remote past? Is {za'a pu broda} nonsensical? >> > I would say the former, in contrast with "ti'e" for second-hand evidence. > > I don't see why "za'a" couldn't be combined with "ba'a nai" or even with > "ba'a", even if "za'a [ba'a cu'i]" is te most common use. > > We probably should not be mixing the time of the event (marked with PU) > with the time in which the evidence for the event is obtained (marked wit= h > "ba'a [cu'i/nai]"). All combinations are possible, as it is possible to > remember (knowing) that something will happen in the future, and to expec= t > (to find out) that something has happened in the past. I suppose that in > the case of "za'a", the PU-time and the ba'a-time should match, but not > necessarily for other evidentials. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a113e4516be13c2054f8d65ef Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 Correct. The concept of evidentials was borrowed di= rectly from=C2=A0L=C3=A1adan, and indirectly from s= ome Native American languages, which require you to transmit information on= how you know something to be true. za'a is in that family, and there i= s no reason for the information you are reporting on has to be occurring wh= ile you are reporting on it.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 --gejyspa


<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, May 14, 2017 at 5:00 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3= =ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:


On Sun, May 14, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Ilmen <= span dir=3D"ltr"><ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Does {za'a} imply that the event described by the sentence is witnessed at the very time of utterance, or does it simply means that the information comes from direct personal experience (directly/sensorily witnessed), even if in remote past? Is {za'a pu broda} nonsensical?

I would say = the former, in contrast with "ti'e" for second-hand evidence.=

I don't see why "za'a" couldn&#= 39;t be combined with "ba'a nai" or even with "ba'a&= quot;, even if "za'a [ba'a cu'i]" is te most common u= se.

We probably should not be mixing the time of t= he event (marked with PU) with the time in which the evidence for the event= is obtained (marked with "ba'a [cu'i/nai]"). All combina= tions are possible, as it is possible to remember (knowing) that something = will happen in the future, and to expect (to find out) that something has h= appened in the past. I suppose that in the case of "za'a", th= e PU-time and the ba'a-time should match, but not necessarily for other= evidentials.

mu'o mi'e xorxes
<= br>

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