Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 00:40:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: Lojban Beginners <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
Message-Id: <21937950-e13a-4275-bba2-aceae58635a7@googlegroups.com>
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References: <3debdce7-7f50-42ab-b43f-e09f66045a1a@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Connecting clauses and serial verbs:  How best
 to translate "Come and take them"
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Em sexta-feira, 16 de fevereiro de 2018 22:24:50 UTC+3, volcpitar escreveu:
>
> To take a concrete example, how could you translate =CE=BC=CE=BF=CE=BB=E1=
=BD=BC=CE=BD =CE=BB=CE=B1=CE=B2=CE=AD (mol=E1=B9=91n=20
> lab=C3=A9) (Come and take them!), the Spartans=E2=80=99 famous response t=
o the=20
> Persians=E2=80=99 demand to lay down their arms and surrender at the batt=
le of=20
> Thermopylae?
>
>
=CE=BC=CE=BF=CE=BB=E1=BD=BC=CE=BD is an Ancient Greek aorist active partici=
ple.
I'm afraid Ancient Greek aorist is poorly translated into English. One just=
=20
need to study Ancient Greek to get a grasp of what aorist means there.=20
Aorist, perfective, telic are infamous examples of "you can't do that in=20
English" and a frequent source of confusion for English-speaking Lojbanists=
=20
(as if we had other kinds of them).

The best renderings in Lojban I can come up with are

[from more precise to less and less correct]

{me lo poi mo'u klama vau lebna fa ko} (participle retained, {mo'u} is=20
chosen to render telicity, see this=20
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_verbs>)
{klama be co'i lebna fa ko} (participle simplified into a seltau, aspect=20
changed from achievative to perfective)
{ca le nu vo'a co'i klama vau ko lebna} (participle transformed into an=20
adverbial clause)
{ko co'i klama gi'e lebna} (participle moved into a separate main verb)

--=20
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>Em sexta-feira, 16 de fevereiro de 2018 22:24:50 U=
TC+3, volcpitar  escreveu:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><span><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;=
margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"background-color: transparent; font-size:=
 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); vertical-align: baseline; w=
hite-space: pre-wrap;">To take a concrete example, how could you translate =
</span><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial; vertical-align=
: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">=CE=BC=CE=BF=CE=BB=E1=BD=BC=CE=BD =CE=
=BB=CE=B1=CE=B2=CE=AD (</span><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family=
: Arial; font-style: italic; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wra=
p;">mol=E1=B9=91n lab=C3=A9) </span><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-=
family: Arial; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">(Come and =
take them!), the Spartans=E2=80=99 famous response to </span><span style=3D=
"background-color: transparent; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color:=
 rgb(0, 0, 0); vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">the Persia=
ns=E2=80=99 demand to lay down their arms and surrender at the battle of Th=
ermopylae?</span><br></p><div><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Ari=
al;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap"><br></span></div></span></div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div><span style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px; white-space: pr=
e-wrap;">=CE=BC=CE=BF=CE=BB=E1=BD=BC=CE=BD is an </span><span style=3D"font=
-family: Arial; font-size: 14px; white-space: pre-wrap;">Ancient Greek </sp=
an><span style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px; white-space: pre-wra=
p;">aorist</span><span style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px; white-=
space: pre-wrap;"> </span><span style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 14p=
x; white-space: pre-wrap;">active participle.</span></div><div><span style=
=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px; white-space: pre-wrap;">I&#39;m af=
raid </span><font face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 14px; white-spac=
e: pre-wrap;">Ancient Greek aorist is poorly translated into English. One j=
ust need to study Ancient Greek to get a grasp of what aorist means there. =
Aorist, perfective, telic are infamous examples of &quot;you can&#39;t do t=
hat in English&quot; and a frequent source of confusion for English-speakin=
g Lojbanists (as if we had other kinds of them).</span></font></div><div><f=
ont face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 14px; white-space: pre-wrap;">=
<br></span></font></div><div><font face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
 14px; white-space: pre-wrap;">The best renderings in Lojban I can come up =
with are</span></font></div><div><font face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 14px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></span></font></div><div><font face=
=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 14px; white-space: pre-wrap;">[from mo=
re precise to less and less correct]</span></font></div><div><font face=3D"=
Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 14px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></span><=
/font></div><div><font face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 14px; white=
-space: pre-wrap;">{me lo poi mo&#39;u klama vau lebna fa ko} (participle r=
etained, {mo&#39;u} is chosen to render telicity, see <a href=3D"https://en=
.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_verbs">this</a>)</span></font></div><div>=
<span style=3D"font-size: 14px; white-space: pre-wrap; font-family: Arial;"=
>{klama be co&#39;i lebna fa ko} (participle simplified into a seltau, aspe=
ct changed from achievative to perfective)</span></div><div><span style=3D"=
font-size: 14px; white-space: pre-wrap; font-family: Arial;">{ca le nu vo&#=
39;a co&#39;i klama vau ko lebna} (participle transformed into an adverbial=
 clause)</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size: 14px; white-space: pre-=
wrap; font-family: Arial;">{ko co&#39;i klama gi&#39;e lebna} (participle m=
oved into a separate main verb)</span></div></div>

<p></p>

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