From jjllambias@hotmail.com Wed Feb 12 06:51:45 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 12 Feb 2003 06:51:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from f259.law8.hotmail.com ([216.33.240.134] helo=hotmail.com) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 18iyEh-0006KU-00 for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 06:51:43 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 06:50:09 -0800 Received: from 200.49.74.2 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:50:09 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.49.74.2] From: "Jorge Llambias" To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: tanru/lujvo for [name] type of thing? Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:50:09 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Feb 2003 14:50:09.0749 (UTC) FILETIME=[0A35B050:01C2D2A6] X-archive-position: 94 X-Approved-By: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners la ian cusku di'e >After spending half a day on thinking about this definition (damn, I should >rather work on my thesis lol), I came up with: > >lu luman zei nunzga li'u cu bridi > le si'o gasnu le logji telsei be da bei de be'o > gi'e snigau fi da kei > le zgana se zukte ku > ce'o le sniselgau be fi da ku > ce'o le nu'o sniselgau be fi de ku > ce'o le zgana poi ciste fi lo luman zei nunzga These words are always confusing, but the way I understand it the x1 of bridi is not (typically) a single word: it is either a full proposition or a full sentence. (It is defined as a text but often used, in English, as "proposition".) The x2 of bridi (the "selbri") is used (at least in English) to refer to the text of the nucleus of the sentence. So we say for example that in the bridi "mi klama le zarci", "klama" is the selbri and "mi" and "le zarci" are the terbri. In English we often treat every argument of {bridi} as text. The gi'uste definition marks only x1 as text. When you talk of "le zgana se zukte" in the definition, presumably you don't have a particular observation in mind, and the same goes for the other arguments. Anyway, I think I understand what you mean even though I don't think using {bridi} like that works for a formal definition. Also, do you really need the x3 place? >With this definition I can then say e.g. (if I have not screwed up): > >.i brode cei luman zei nunzga > >.i zo censa selbo'e fi le skeci'e na.e le lijdyci'e po'e >(holy vs. (unholy or secular or whatever) is a difference that science is >blind to and religion alone can make) I suppose you mean {fo} rather than {fi}. What would go in x3? "Unholy"? That sounds wrong. "Neither holy nor unholy"? Couldn't we just say: le ka censa cu se zgana fi le skaci'e na.e le lijdyci'e Holyness is observed not by means of science but of religion. I'm not sure why you want the observation act as one of the places in your basic predicate, and I'm not sure I understand what goes in the place for the "non-distiguished". >.i la saske cu velbo'e zo jetnu po'o enai zo melbi >(science is a system that marks things as being "true" and not as >"beautiful") Would x3 be zo jitfa? Another way of saying it might be: la saske cu pajni le du'u xukau jetnu enai le du'u xukau melbi Science determines whether something is true, not whether it is beautiful. >.i la brode ganlo ciste goi ko'a cu velbo'e da poi ko'a ka'e velbo'e ke'a >ku'o de poi ko'a na ka'e velbo'e ke'a .ijanai ko'a velbo'e lu'e ko'a > >(The operationally closed system observes the difference of observations it >can make vs. those it can not make. If it can't do that It can't refer to >itself) Shouldn't you have {le terfrica be da poi ... bei de poi ...} in the x2? In other words, in a closed system the difference between observables and non-observables is observable. Otherwise you are saying that closed systems observe what they observe against what they don't observe, but every system supposedly does that, doesn't it? I may be misunderstanding your x3. mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963