From fracture@allusion.net Sat Mar 13 07:26:20 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:26:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from ms-smtp-01.texas.rr.com ([24.93.47.40] helo=ms-smtp-01-eri0.texas.rr.com) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1B2B1o-0000lT-Gr for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:26:20 -0800 Received: from fracture (cs24349-133.austin.rr.com [24.243.49.133]) by ms-smtp-01-eri0.texas.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i2DFQElK002491 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 09:26:14 -0600 (CST) Received: by fracture (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sat, 13 Mar 2004 09:39:34 -0600 From: "Jordan DeLong" Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 09:39:34 -0600 To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Story time Message-ID: <20040313153934.GB67210@allusion.net> References: <20040312001528.P8729@fresco.Math.McGill.CA> <20040313013932.GV11847@digitalkingdom.org> <20040313021148.R8729@fresco.Math.McGill.CA> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="+pHx0qQiF2pBVqBT" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040313021148.R8729@fresco.Math.McGill.CA> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-archive-position: 603 X-Approved-By: fracture@allusion.net X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners --+pHx0qQiF2pBVqBT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Mar 13, 2004 at 02:11:48AM -0500, Andrew Archibald wrote: > On Fri, Mar 12, 2004 at 05:39:32PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: [...] > > [1]: I'm pretty sure xorxes is right on this, but I'm going for what I > > think you meant. >=20 > That is indeed what I meant; I read the CLL and didn't realize this > was such a subtle issue.=20 >=20 > Clearly {noda viska node} is equivalent to=20 > {noda node zo'u da viska de}. > But does this translate to > "There is no X, there is no Y, such that X saw Y" > or > "There is no X such that there is no Y such that X saw Y"? The way to write the former in predicate logic is with only one negation. ~ExEyVxy So that's how you do it in lojban: {noda de zo'u da viska de}, or equivalently something like {naku da viska de} or {da na viska de}. > The first is what I meant; the second is not. The CLL has an exactly > parallel case: >=20 > #3.3) ro da ro de zo'u da prami de > # For-every X, for-every Y : X loves Y. > # Everything loves everything. >=20 > Of course, {ro} is not {no}; in this example it doesn't matter which > is chosen. I think, upon more careful reading, that the correct > interpretation of zo'u is > such that such that . Is > this correct?=20 Yes. Every quantifier creates a scope which applies to all the following quantifiers. Quantifier scopes is one of the least understood portions of the language---people frequently forget that {lo} creates an implicit scope just like da. Some scope issues are also unresolved/broken in CLL. It's a very frequent error among lojbanists (you'll see it on irc a lot) to confuse quantification if they have a negation. "roda" is not the same as english "everything"; after naku you probably want "su'oda", etc. > Can I say "There is no (X,Y) such that X sees Y"? I can't understand > what the CLL has to say about "grouping of quantifiers" to tell > whether this is what they do (although jbofi'e doesn't seem to think > so). =20 I think you can use a termset (cf. example 7.5 in chap 16). {noda ce'e node viska}, or something like that. But I'd just stick with what I suggested above: {da na viska de} or {naku da de viska}. --=20 Jordan DeLong fracture@allusion.net --+pHx0qQiF2pBVqBT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAUys2DrrilS51AZ8RAusVAJ9FIz6v/Df73NTYHtyLXYAld8qinQCgw49N voyV+21NjIRzCdQvUtHu23Q= =0GA9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --+pHx0qQiF2pBVqBT--