From jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar Wed Mar 31 04:32:30 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 31 Mar 2004 04:32:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from web41903.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.93.154]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.30) id 1B8etR-0005be-T0 for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 04:32:29 -0800 Message-ID: <20040331123159.27765.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.49.74.2] by web41903.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 04:31:59 PST Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 04:31:59 -0800 (PST) From: Jorge "Llambías" Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: lojban qua lingua franca To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org In-Reply-To: <20040331015502.K31434@fresco.Math.McGill.CA> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-archive-position: 636 X-Approved-By: jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners --- Andrew Archibald wrote: > It appears that in their terminology, what I am looking for is a Stage > 3 fu'ivla, as it has a rafsi qualifier. Yes, I said 4 but I meant 3. For some reason I can never remember that correctly. > As you say, it meets the > criteria for fu'ivla, but it does not follow the algorithm. But > following the algorithm in this case leads irreducibly to a > four-consonant cluster, which I personally find rather difficult. In > fact, for many many gismu we will end up with such a cluster: if the > four-letter rafsi has a vowel as its second letter, which is the case > for 1104 gismu, then it must end with a pair of consonants; the > algorithm always ensures that at least two more follow. The algorithm guarantees a three-consonant cluster, and in some cases as you say a four-consonant one. That's to make the word "crunchy" enough so that it won't break apart. The result is almost invariably a mouthful. > Since this is > only one suggested algorithm, have people devised their own, > guaranteed-safe, procedures? Or do people rely on fu'ivla having been > generated using the algorithm to recognize them? For one-time on-the-fly uses, the algorithm gives a relatively simple way to manage. For words intended to last, you just have to be careful to find a nice but valid form. Here is a list of all valid short (up-to-seven-letter) fu'ivla forms: > Looking at the CLL, a step in the lujvo-making algorithm is not clear > to me: suppose I want to make a lujvo out of {makfu nazbu}. That > would be {makfynazbu}? The point of confusion is this: > > Step 4 is "Add hyphen letters where necessary. It is illegal to add a > hyphen at a place that is not required by this algorithm." > > Steps 4 a through c describe hyphenations; but are these "always put a > hyphen" or "if you put a hyphen, this is how"? Always in those cases. > Specifically, will a four-letter rafsi always be followed by a "y" in > lujvo? (this never occurs in /usr/share/lojban/lujvo-list) Yes, always. mu'o mi'e xorxes __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html