From rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Wed Oct 13 09:07:22 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:07:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CHles-00012z-7M for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:07:22 -0700 Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:07:22 -0700 To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: cmavo can be selbri? Message-ID: <20041013160722.GE12568@chain.digitalkingdom.org> References: <87r7ocvn9y.fsf@pacbell.net> <200410061402.i96E2VMY019310@mole.e-mol.com> <87hdozatdi.fsf@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87hdozatdi.fsf@pacbell.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040722i From: Robin Lee Powell X-archive-position: 814 X-Approved-By: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Wed, Oct 13, 2004 at 01:56:41AM -0700, Starling wrote: > "Adam D. Lopresto" writes: > > > Well, if you really wanted to say "xu is a member of the set of > > cmavo" that would be {zo xu cmima lo'i cmavo}, but I think what > > you really want to say is "xu is a cmavo" which is very simply > > {zo xu cmavo}. > > Actually my question had to do with whether all cmavo could be > used as the selbri in a bridi. 'xu' cannot, while 'du' can it > seems. Correct. As I said in this thread before, only cmavo belonging to selma'o GOhA (i.e. the same grammatical category as go'a) can be used as selbri. List of GOhA: bu'a GOhA some selbri 1 bu'e GOhA some selbri 2 bu'i GOhA some selbri 3 co'e GOhA unspecif bridi du GOhA same identity as go'a GOhA recent bridi go'e GOhA penultimate bridi go'i GOhA last bridi go'o GOhA future bridi go'u GOhA earlier bridi mo GOhA bridi ? nei GOhA current bridi no'a GOhA next outer bridi Other similar cases: Any two words joined by "zei" are a selbri. I often use ".u'i zei cinmo" and similar to, effectively, turn a UI cmavo into a selbri. The cmavo "me" converts a sumti directly into a selbri, which has little to do with cmavo but is grammatically related. Numbers or letters followed by a cmavo of selma'o MOI are selbri. A list: cu'o MOI probability selbri mei MOI cardinal selbri moi MOI ordinal selbri si'e MOI portion selbri va'e MOI scalar selbri The cmavo "nu'a" turns a mekso operator into a selbri. That seems to be it. In case you're wondering where this came from, the following (pulled from my PEG grammar) is a more-or-less complete list of the things that can be selbri. Anything in capitals is a selma'o (except BRIVLA, which is exactly what it sounds like). Feel absolutely free to ignore it, it's not important. tanru-unit-2 <- any-word spacing-no-absorb-opt (ZEI any-word spacing-no-absorb-opt)+ indicators* / BRIVLA !BU free* / GOhA RAhO? free* / KE free* selbri-3 KEhE? free* / ME free* (sumti / lerfu-string) MEhU? free* MOI? free* / (number / lerfu-string) MOI free* / NUhA free* mex-operator / SE free* tanru-unit-2 / JAI free* tag? tanru-unit-2 / NAhE free* tanru-unit-2 / NU NAI? free* (joik-jek NU NAI? free*)* subsentence KEI? free* > Thus "zo xu cmavo" makes good sense. And to go full circle, this > might make sense as well to equate 'xu' as a cmavo-thing. > > zo xu du le cmavo General beginner's tip: If your language has (aka the verb "to be"), and you find yourself using "du" in Lojban for anything than math, you've made a mistake. Take whatever time you need to re-write it. Same goes for "dunli" most of the time. > Not sure if that also means all cmavo are 'xu' No. It means that the word "xu" is exactly identical with some cmavo that you have in mind. Since "le" is non-veridical (i.e. you can call something a cmavo using "le" when it really isn't), this provides very little information to the listener. I think it's safe to say, though, that most of us would take this as being something like "goi", i.e. I would take it to mean "OK, the cmavo I have in mind when I say/said {le cmavo} is actually {xu}.". Which is fine, but not what you had in mind. -Robin -- http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!"