From philip.newton@gmail.com Sat Dec 18 01:11:08 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 18 Dec 2004 01:11:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.170.200]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CfacG-00060b-KZ for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 01:11:08 -0800 Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so36652rnf for ; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 01:11:04 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=MoqQbE2gOhZEYtALxk8gvmFQh38+F3t7GpiT+McDaSBmPAS1HsjuYqH5a3TOBlqUVRLoObo28Tzsk894ArJLinc7ZbDBqLw0+sp/g1dHPD5SOtUjwEMNbXAfn3qE31UsbGN0buHz2bVTEvrksvkL26EdgezC/XSxa2syuQweFjM= Received: by 10.38.11.49 with SMTP id 49mr139552rnk; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 01:11:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.208.51 with HTTP; Sat, 18 Dec 2004 01:11:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <537d06d004121801115994c775@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 10:11:04 +0100 From: Philip Newton To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: grasping lojban In-Reply-To: <41C319F2.3080705@houston.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII References: <41C319F2.3080705@houston.rr.com> X-archive-position: 947 X-Approved-By: philip.newton@gmail.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: philip.newton@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:40:02 -0600, Bob A wrote: > coi; Im new to lojban, so I have some questions. > > I heard that lojban can use SOV order without any particles, so how can > you interpret "mi klama zdani" as "I go to a home" and not "I am a home > of something that goes"? You cannot. However, {mi do tavla} would mean "I talk to you" and you do not need other particles. The difference being the word class: {do} is a cmavo while {klama} is a brivla. Since putting two brivla together results in a tanru, you need an explicit {cu} if the second brivla is the predicate. (Also, you'd need an article: {mi le klama cu zdani} would be something like "I am a home for something that goes" while *{mi klama cu zdani} would be ungrammatical since {mi klama} is "I go" and then you get a {cu} which introduces a predicate into a statement that already has one.) Also, SOV is not really a good term for Lojban, since "subject" and "object" are not necessarily descriptions for brivla which can have more than two arguments. > How do you form adjectives? brivla can be nouns, adjectives, adverbs, or verbs depending on how they are used: {mi viska le blanu} = I see the blue thing (blanu = noun) {mi viska le blanu dinju} = I see the blue building (blanu = adjective) {mi blanu viska} = I bluely see (blanu = adverb) {mi blanu} = I am blue (blanu = verb) Note that "=" is used here not as "is" but more in the sense of "acts in this sentence in a manner which would be filled by a [noun/adjective/adverb/verb] in a corresponding English sentence". > How do you include the objects of nouns? I'm not sure what you mean here. What's the object of a noun? > How can you tell when a compound phrase arnt just two words in different > positions? The simple answer is that if two words next to each other could be considered together, they are; if you want the other interpretation, you have to split them up, typically by inserting a suitable terminator to the first portion. For example, if you want to say *{mi le dinju viska} for "I see the building", you could introduce the predicate by {cu} as {mi le dinju cu viska} or terminate the sumti {le dinju} with the elidable terminator {ku} -- with {le dinju ku}, the sentence becomes {mi le dinju ku viska}, which is also correct. (The fullest form would be {mi le dinju ku cu viska vau}.) > How do you form adverbs? Generally, brivla can work as adverbs if they modify a following brivla which acts as a verb. > How do you specify the degree of a word? What do you mean by this? > How do you talk about things like ownership and belongingship? The things that come to my mind include the gismu {ponse} and the cmavo {pe} and {po}. For example, {mi ponse lo cukta} is "I have books"; {le cukta pe mi} is "the book associated with me (e.g. the one next to me)" while {le cukta po mi} is (roughly) "the book possessed by me". > Which mailinglist is good for newbies to practise lojban? This one is probably the best there is, though it's not very high-traffic IME. mu'o mi'e .filip. -- Philip Newton