From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Mar 03 12:30:39 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:33:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1D6wxz-0000kz-K9 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:30:39 -0800 Received: from new.e-mol.com ([65.169.135.18] helo=mole.e-mol.com) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.44) id 1D6wxw-0000kN-RB for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:30:39 -0800 Received: from mail.123.net (new.e-mol.com [65.169.135.18]) by mole.e-mol.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with SMTP id j23KU4Td008334 for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:30:04 -0500 Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:30:04 -0500 Message-Id: <200503032030.j23KU4Td008334@mole.e-mol.com> To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org From: Matt Arnold Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: personal pronouns In-Reply-To: <20050303195042.GI3172@chain.digitalkingdom.org> References: <20050302211229.GN17705@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <20050302213122.4914.qmail@web41908.mail.yahoo.com> <20050302213458.GO17705@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <200503031932.j23JWhTd003191@mole.e-mol.com> <20050303195042.GI3172@chain.digitalkingdom.org> X-Priority: 3 X-From: mattarn@mail.123.net X-Originating-IP: [209.220.229.254] Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "chain.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. 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Content preview: How about possession? le terdi cu sipna ni'a leko'a blabi kicne .i gacri le solri gi'e na ko'e rinka nu leko'a cikna -epkat lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org wrote: >On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 02:32:43PM -0500, Matt Arnold wrote: >> Is {do'o} a plural "you" like the Spanish "usted"? > >So I gather. > >> Or is it only to be used when some of those it refers to are not >> among the listener(s)? > >Well, see, that depends on how you've bound your listeners. > >If I'm talking to bab and raitcel: > >doi la .bab. xu do'o klama le zarci fi'o se kansa mi > >doi la .bab. .e la .raitcel. xu do klama le zarci fi'o se kansa mi > >Generally, it is assumed (at least by me) that you are talking to >one person at a time. > >> How do we speak about the third person without including the first >> or second person? > >Several options: > >ti/ta/tu > >le go'i/go'e/go'a/etc > >le ninmu/nanmu/remna poi > >la bab > >ko'a > >by (stands for bab, or whatever) > >> I know there are no gender-based pronouns such as "he" or "she" >> but I expected a genderless third-person pronoun and a plural to >> mean "they." Are such pronouns translated using {ko'a} >> he/she/it/they? > >That's one way, yes. > >> I know that can apply, but doesn't it have to be >> assigned a referent with {goi}? Is that required? > >Define "required". If you're talking to a computer, yes, but most >humans can deal with "OK, the person we're talking about is now >ko'a, despite this never really having been defined". > >doi .bab. la .raitcel. diklo ma .i mi pu kanpe[1] lo nu ko'a klama >ti > >I'd just use 'ry' there myself, though. > >> What if we want to leave {ko'a} unspecified except for a gender or >> number -- how is that expressed? > >da > >-Robin > >[1]: kanpe is a proposed experimental gismu meaning "expect", >because it's really hard to get there from the current gismu list. >It's just like pacna except without the connotation of desire. > >-- >http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ >Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!" >Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/ [...] Content analysis details: (-2.3 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -2.6 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] 0.3 AWL AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list X-archive-position: 1199 X-Approved-By: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: mattarn@123.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners How about possession? le terdi cu sipna ni'a leko'a blabi kicne .i gacri le solri gi'e na ko'e rinka nu leko'a cikna -epkat lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org wrote: >On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 02:32:43PM -0500, Matt Arnold wrote: >> Is {do'o} a plural "you" like the Spanish "usted"? > >So I gather. > >> Or is it only to be used when some of those it refers to are not >> among the listener(s)? > >Well, see, that depends on how you've bound your listeners. > >If I'm talking to bab and raitcel: > >doi la .bab. xu do'o klama le zarci fi'o se kansa mi > >doi la .bab. .e la .raitcel. xu do klama le zarci fi'o se kansa mi > >Generally, it is assumed (at least by me) that you are talking to >one person at a time. > >> How do we speak about the third person without including the first >> or second person? > >Several options: > >ti/ta/tu > >le go'i/go'e/go'a/etc > >le ninmu/nanmu/remna poi > >la bab > >ko'a > >by (stands for bab, or whatever) > >> I know there are no gender-based pronouns such as "he" or "she" >> but I expected a genderless third-person pronoun and a plural to >> mean "they." Are such pronouns translated using {ko'a} >> he/she/it/they? > >That's one way, yes. > >> I know that can apply, but doesn't it have to be >> assigned a referent with {goi}? Is that required? > >Define "required". If you're talking to a computer, yes, but most >humans can deal with "OK, the person we're talking about is now >ko'a, despite this never really having been defined". > >doi .bab. la .raitcel. diklo ma .i mi pu kanpe[1] lo nu ko'a klama >ti > >I'd just use 'ry' there myself, though. > >> What if we want to leave {ko'a} unspecified except for a gender or >> number -- how is that expressed? > >da > >-Robin > >[1]: kanpe is a proposed experimental gismu meaning "expect", >because it's really hard to get there from the current gismu list. >It's just like pacna except without the connotation of desire. > >-- >http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ >Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!" >Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/ _______________________________________________________ Sent through e-mol. E-mail, Anywhere, Anytime. http://www.e-mol.com