From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Mar 08 13:59:31 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 08 Mar 2005 13:59:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1D8mjj-0007at-1C for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 13:59:31 -0800 Received: from new.e-mol.com ([65.169.135.18] helo=mole.e-mol.com) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.44) id 1D8mjg-0007aB-Iz for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2005 13:59:30 -0800 Received: from mail.123.net (new.e-mol.com [65.169.135.18]) by mole.e-mol.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with SMTP id j28LwtTd017801 for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:58:55 -0500 Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:58:55 -0500 Message-Id: <200503082158.j28LwtTd017801@mole.e-mol.com> To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org From: Matt Arnold Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: personal pronouns In-Reply-To: <20050308181651.6747.qmail@web41902.mail.yahoo.com> References: 6667 <20050308181651.6747.qmail@web41902.mail.yahoo.com> X-Priority: 3 X-From: mattarn@mail.123.net X-Originating-IP: [209.220.229.254] Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "chain.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: xorxes, I see! {.ua} Thank you! {ki'e} Your examples are enlightening. {ledo mupli cu rinka lo nu jimpe} I had been unfamiliar with the use of the first letter to substitute for a word, but yesterday I read your Tower of Babel translation on the Langmaker website and noticed the technique was prominent and very useful. Also, I am aware that the use of gendered pronouns to speak of that which would otherwise be referred to as "it" is an idiom from natural languages, but when translating poetry that attempts to personalize and anthropomorphize the earth and sun, is there a way to preserve this feeling without committing malglico? {ninmu}, "woman", is dispreferred in metaphor as sexist. Can I say {fetsi}, "female"? -Matt [...] Content analysis details: (-2.3 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -2.6 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] 0.3 AWL AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list X-archive-position: 1205 X-Approved-By: mattarn@123.net X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: mattarn@123.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners xorxes, I see! {.ua} Thank you! {ki'e} Your examples are enlightening. {ledo mupli cu rinka lo nu jimpe} I had been unfamiliar with the use of the first letter to substitute for a word, but yesterday I read your Tower of Babel translation on the Langmaker website and noticed the technique was prominent and very useful. Also, I am aware that the use of gendered pronouns to speak of that which would otherwise be referred to as "it" is an idiom from natural languages, but when translating poetry that attempts to personalize and anthropomorphize the earth and sun, is there a way to preserve this feeling without committing malglico? {ninmu}, "woman", is dispreferred in metaphor as sexist. Can I say {fetsi}, "female"? -Matt lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org wrote: > >--- Matt Arnold wrote: >> >> le terdi cu sipna ni'a leko'a blabi kicne >> >> I was trying to say "The earth sleeps beneath his/her/its white cushion." In >> a previous e-mail I wrote: "doesn't [ko'a] have to be assigned a referent >> with {goi}? Is that required?" and you replied: "Define 'required'. If >> you're talking to a computer, yes, but most humans can deal with 'OK, the >> person we're talking about is now ko'a, despite this never really having been >> defined'." > >That probably needs more qualification. I don't really see >{ko'a} used that way much, mainly because there are usually more >precise alternatives available. > >> How did I do this wrong in the above sentence? > >Some alternatives would be: > > le terdi cu sipna ni'a le vo'a blabi kicne > > le terdi cu sipna ni'a le ri blabi kicne > > le terdi cu sipna ni'a le ty blabi kicne > >So it's unlikely that {ko'a} would be taken to be >{le terdi}. > >> >> .i gacri le solri gi'e na ko'e rinka nu leko'a cikna >> >Cover for the sun and massive syntax error. >> >> In short, how do I use pronouns in Lojban to translate: >> "The earth sleeps beneath her white comforter. The sun is covered and will >> not wake her." > >For example: > > le terdi cu sipna ni'a le vo'a blabi kicne i le solri > cu se gacri gi'e na gasnu lo nu ty cikna > >mu'o mi'e xorxes _______________________________________________________ Sent through e-mol. E-mail, Anywhere, Anytime. http://www.e-mol.com