From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Apr 23 00:33:14 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 23 Apr 2005 00:33:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DPF8c-0002U3-6M for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 00:33:14 -0700 Received: from genamics.blastula.net ([205.214.85.184]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.50) id 1DPF8Z-0002Ts-7O for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 00:33:14 -0700 Received: from [203.184.4.77] (helo=gulik.co.nz) by genamics.blastula.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1DPF7s-0005GS-Bd for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 19:33:03 +1200 Message-ID: <4269F9F9.2070006@gulik.co.nz> Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 19:32:09 +1200 From: Michael van der Gulik User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-GB; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040216 Debian/1.6.x.1-10 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Lojban beginners list References: <5132817.1113846425529.JavaMail.stiofan@mac.com> <20050418174936.GW10596@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <5167424.1113864039505.JavaMail.stiofan@mac.com> <20050418230248.GA10596@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <20050422195800.GB21958@chain.digitalkingdom.org> In-Reply-To: <20050422195800.GB21958@chain.digitalkingdom.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - genamics.blastula.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - chain.digitalkingdom.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - gulik.co.nz X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 1385 X-Approved-By: mikevdg@gulik.co.nz X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: mikevdg@gulik.co.nz Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners Stiofan Mac Suibhne wrote: >The arguments / relationships etc, I can't quite get the feel of how >that works. I speak several European languages so am only able to >express things in grammar terms I am familiar with at present. I >understand that one needs to understand something on its own terms, >but I would be grateful for any insights you might be able to give >me on how this might function, with examples in English of what >these relationships achieve. Are the arguments subject / object, >the relationships verbs as we might understand things at present. > > Relationships are a concept known by logicians, mathematicians and computer scientists, so I don't blame you for being confused about it! There is a relationship between you, for example, and your father - a father-son relationship. If your father's name is, e.g. "bob", then in Lojban you would express this relationship as "la bob patfu mi", where the relationship is "patfu", your father (x1 of patfu) is "la bob" and you (x2 of patfu) are "mi". So this is a fatherhood ("patfu") relationship between bob and you. This is expanded to the more general sence. The overused example is "mi klama le zarci" - I go to the market. The relationship is "klama" - "going". x1 is "mi", x2 is "le zarci". So the relationship here is the "going" relationship, which is a relationship between you and the market. This may seem quite strange to somebody who hasn't spent years doing logic or math. The Lojban word for relationship is "brivla", which is the main word in a Lojban sentence. These come in three flavours: gismu (base words), lujvo (compound words) and fu'ivla (words from other languages). An "argument" is just a complicated name for the x1, x2, x3, x4 or x5 places of a brivla. In terms of subjects, objects etc, these usually take the x1, x2... x5 places of a brivla. For example, if you look up the definition of "dunda": dunda: give Definition: x1 [donor] gives/donates gift/present x2 to recipient/beneficiary x3 [without payment/exchange] So if I say "mi dunda la cukta do", x1 is "mi", x2 is "la cukta", x3 is "do", and the brivla is the gismu "dunda". In English, this sentence is "I give you the book". "I" is the subject, "the book" is the object and "you" is the indirect object. So I guess in this case, x1 is the subject, x2 is the object and x3 is the indirect object. However, there isn't really any need to think of things in terms of subjects and object in Lojban; the language is much simpler than European languages. >with gismu, in pairs tanru? the first modifies the second? Does >that mean that the first has the function that adjective or adverb >has in English (or French / Italian / Spanish / Gaeilge) > > Yes. The last word in a pair, triplet, whatever of tanru is the one that carries the meaning of the sentence and specifies the places (x1, x2...) that the sentence has. The words that come before that act a bit like adjectives or adverbs. There are many exceptions and ways of confusing people though. >Pronouncing Y, are there any mp3 files that we could listen to the, >other vowels etc and consonants are ok, we make those sounds on a >daily basis already. > > "y" is easy. Just relax everything in your mouth and throat, let your mouth hang open and make a noise. Otherwise there are heaps of sound files here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Multimedia&bl or use Google. There's a fair amount floating around the net - search for "lojban mp3". Mikevdg.