From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Jun 13 11:40:58 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1Dhtrl-0003vF-UI for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:40:58 -0700 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.205]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Dhtrj-0003v7-JY for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:40:57 -0700 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so1103576wra for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:40:54 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=nVFWE8A2BGtdUXMNm7kMCv80U4VC3C3j0vJbDBswQpybyaTS/cnBSTGSjcSAv4Q3p5HZn6o+wJcuiZrA6ucv+rushW2clCoTVPRzqS6fog3PtArux4valAKpFL3XPrD9FlV63LHBXzmVn+lTfAuxoUimaE4k/Xye53+IbLQQCF8= Received: by 10.54.71.3 with SMTP id t3mr2694072wra; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.67.20 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d1756050613114053309f6f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:40:54 -0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: zvati In-Reply-To: <20050613174958.GI4118@chain.digitalkingdom.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050608220428.GF15659@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <925d1756050609072757542a3c@mail.gmail.com> <925d175605060911227d7c6445@mail.gmail.com> <925d175605060914082a76fce1@mail.gmail.com> <20050610223041.GT22480@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <20050613174958.GI4118@chain.digitalkingdom.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 1516 X-Approved-By: jjllambias@gmail.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 6/13/05, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > I disagreed that zvati was purely locational, because of the way the > English was written. I have been convinced that the intention was > locational, and have updated jbovlaste to reflect this. I think describing {zvati} as "atemporal" confuses things more than anything. Are you going to add "atemporal" to {zunle}, {crane}, {sruri}, {snanu}, and all other spatial relationships too? Compare: abu crane by A is in front of B. abu zunle by A is to the left of B. abu sruri by A is around B. abu snanu by A is south of B. abu zvati by A is at B. Are all of these "atemporal"? All of them describe relative positions, but normally they describe simultaneous positions. If I want to say that A is left of where B was, or in front of where B was, or around of where B was, or south of where B was, then that requires a more elaborate description. Then A is not left/in front/around/south of/at B, but rather it is related to a place where B was. Spatial relationships assume that the two things being compared are there at the same time. {zvati} is not special in this regard, so if you describe it as "atemporal" all the others would be atemporal too. mu'o mi'e xorxes