From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Aug 01 07:20:55 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 01 Aug 2005 07:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1Dzb9y-0003VY-SA for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 01 Aug 2005 07:20:54 -0700 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.194]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1Dzb9u-0003VQ-AA for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Mon, 01 Aug 2005 07:20:54 -0700 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i30so1396333wra for ; Mon, 01 Aug 2005 07:20:47 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=on1HM8Gjw3xqOPkScxiZJ5SoCd4Ujr8d6vOhetltnrbqKsfO/4ibEhqp40LFvkvMaDpSe2FgEKU2Y9uJxe7j8eOtPUuXbApdwYv8V7LVp46r9kIDJXJ+SeTQLidrOTz/k4Dyi6bKXuwSYGiEtWa3lgSbF7Of7l4tPnCW3B6i2LA= Received: by 10.54.30.23 with SMTP id d23mr2895273wrd; Mon, 01 Aug 2005 07:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.68.12 with HTTP; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 07:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d175605080107207919633@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 11:20:47 -0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Diagramming Lojban In-Reply-To: <42ED3F8B.7030102@hypermetrics.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <42EBF0D9.1010801@hypermetrics.com> <42EC63A1.1030702@hypermetrics.com> <05FA0805-8EC1-4190-9C9E-7AD2D59A8705@gmail.com> <42ED3F8B.7030102@hypermetrics.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 1662 X-Approved-By: jjllambias@gmail.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 7/31/05, Hal Fulton wrote: > As I understand it, vi/va/vu are rather like: here, there, way over there. > > It modifies differently depending on its position in the sentence. At the > end, it adds a new sumti to the standard sumti -- meaning something like > "over there near something unspecified." vi/va/vu, as well as zi, za, zu, ve'i, ve'a, ve'u, ze'i, ze'a, ze'u, pu, ca, ba, bu'u, ne'i, ne'a, fa'a, ta'e, ba'o, pu'o, za'o, co'a, ka'e, bai, bau, ki'u, ri'a, etc. etc. etc. (lots more) all behave in essentially the same way: they add an argument place to the selbri. (They are called "tags") They can be placed directly in front of the selbri, in which case the place they add cannot be explicitly filled, or they can be placed as one more among the sumti, in which case, if the sumti place is not filled, they are terminated with {ku}. So all of these are basically the same: le gerku va batci le nanmu va ku le gerku cu batci le nanmu le gerku va ku batci le nanmu le gerku cu batci va ku le nanmu le gerku cu batci le nanmu va Notice that when {va} is used directly in front of the selbri, {cu} is not necessary, because {va} already indicates that the preceding sumti has terminated, so there is no danger of {batci} being taken as part of the single sumti {le gerku batci}. Also, when {va} is at the very end, {ku} is not needed after it. There are many other possible word orders, of course, such as: le gerku le nanmu va batci va ku le gerku le nanmu cu batci le gerku va ku le nanmu cu batci le gerku le nanmu va ku batci le gerku le nanmu cu batci va etc. The particularity of the vi/va/vu tags is that while it is clear what they mean when used alone, there is some dispute as to the meaning of the sumti they introduce. There are basically three possibilities: (1) {va ko'a} = There at ko'a. (2) {va ko'a} = Some medium distance away from ko'a. (3) {va ko'a} = A ko'a distance away (as in "two miles away"). Meaning (1) is mentioned in the ma'oste, but it is practically obsolete. Meaning (2) is the one given in CLL, and thus so far the most "official". Meaning (3) is the one I prefer, because there are other ways of doing (2) but no other simple way of saying (3), and also because vi/va/vu are displacement magnitude indicators, so it is natural that what they tag is the displacement magnitude, in the same way in which for example ve'i/ve'a/ve'u tag the magnitude of the space occupied. In any case, (2) and (3) almost never cause confusion, because for example: le gerku cu batci le nanmu va le zdani is almost certainly meant with sense (2) and le gerku cu batci le nanmu va lo mitre be li mu is almost certainly meant with sense (3). mu'o mi'e xorxes