From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Aug 10 20:45:53 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E340v-0000r0-9e for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:45:53 -0700 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.197]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E340q-0000qf-Ca for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:45:53 -0700 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i13so304948wra for ; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:45:28 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=tImnoTYZUPRDsNYaVCraw/DimZY1AWVEDs9+OtzMbvoklS4ZJAnoIrckDu2tnFC/fFT2MitfxMbtsF/zpUdL6NCkWxA9xLy27Hj5FXs1e9cekKBqwzER8YpGeRM1x4rNMp5EeDiWNnGTpfFxNYg7ZUAZLCVVqhFKe9dKmJWmtYw= Received: by 10.54.27.52 with SMTP id a52mr922823wra; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:45:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.125.8 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:45:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5ccdc7530508102045252ad4bc@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:45:28 -0400 From: "la cuncuxnas." To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Number questions In-Reply-To: <42FABAB2.8040603@hypermetrics.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_528_9141384.1123731928340" References: <42FABAB2.8040603@hypermetrics.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 1673 X-Approved-By: thatskotkid@gmail.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: thatskotkid@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_528_9141384.1123731928340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I don't really know too much, but it looks to me as though {li} is somethin= g=20 like "the number", and "li ci su'i vo" comes close to "the number (three=20 plus four)". (Which then makes the whole sentence similar to "The number=20 that is three added to four is equal/equivalent to which number?") If vo go= t=20 its own li, then ci would need one too, and you'd end up with "li li ci su'= i=20 li vo", and that's just too many articles for me to think about. I don't really know about the li preceding xo, but just browsing the cmavo= =20 listing shows that xo can apparently also refer to letterals. So perhaps th= e=20 "li" eliminates the possibility of someone saying that 3 + 4 =3D L. But the= n,=20 that's purely speculation on my part. I don't think "le" can be put on "ma". Under certain circumstances, I guess= =20 ({le ma karce} or "the car of who/what?"), but otherwise "ma" is a=20 pro-sumti, so it can stand on its own. It's intended to be replaced with a= =20 full sumti by whoever is answering the question, so their answer could=20 contain "le" or "la" or "lo" or whatever fits. xo, though, is not a=20 pro-sumti. It's intended to be replaced by numbers (or letters, apparently)= ,=20 and so acts like a number itself. If I could place an attitudinal over that whole ramble, it'd run something= =20 like "just keep in mind that I may understand things incorrectly, and=20 further may be completely off my nut." mu'omi'e cuncuxnas. On 8/10/05, Hal Fulton wrote: >=20 > This appears in _Lojban for Beginners_: >=20 > li ci su'i vo du li xo > 3 + 4 =3D ? >=20 > Fine, but I have some questions: >=20 > - Why no "li" on "vo"? Is it optional or not? > - Why "li" on "xo"? Optional or not? If optional, > does meaning change? > - If we can put "li" on "xo", can we put "le" on "ma"? > do nelci le ma > Optional or not? If optional, does meaning change? >=20 >=20 > Thanks for insights... >=20 >=20 > Hal >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ------=_Part_528_9141384.1123731928340 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I don't really know too much, but it looks to me as though {li} is something like "the number", and "li ci su'i vo" comes = close to "the number (three plus four)".  (Which then makes the whole sentence similar to "The number that is three added to four is equal/equivalent to which number?") If vo got its own li, then ci would need one too, and you'd end up with "li li ci su'i li vo", and that's just too = many articles for me to think about.

I don't really know about the li preceding xo, but just browsing the cmavo listing shows that xo can apparently also refer to letterals.  So perhaps the "li" eliminates the possibility o= f someone saying that 3 + 4 =3D L.  But then, that's purely speculation on my part.

I don't think "le" can be put on "ma".  Under cert= ain circumstances, I guess ({le ma karce} or "the car of who/what?"),= but otherwise "ma" is a pro-sumti, so it can stand on its own.  = It's intended to be replaced with a full sumti by whoever is answering the question, so their answer could contain "le" or "la" or= "lo" or whatever fits.  xo, though, is not a pro-sumti.  It's intended to be replaced by numbers (or letters, apparently), and so acts like a number itself.

If I could place an attitudinal over that whole ramble, it'd run something like "just keep in mind that I may understand things incorrectly, and further may be completely off my nut."

mu'omi'e cuncuxnas.

On 8/10/05, Hal Fulton <hal9000@hypermetrics.com> wrote:
This appears in _Lojban for Beginners_:

    li c= i su'i vo du li xo
    3 + 4 =3D ?

Fine, but = I have some questions:

   - Why no "li" on "= ;vo"? Is it optional or not?
   - Why "li" on &= quot;xo"? Optional or not? If optional,
     does meaning change?
   - If we c= an put "li" on "xo", can we put "le" on "= ;ma"?
       do nelci le ma
 =     Optional or not? If optional, does meaning change?

Thanks for insights...


Hal




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