From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Aug 20 20:28:52 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E6gVw-0000AR-9Z for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:28:52 -0700 Received: from zproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.162.192]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E6gVs-0000AJ-Rj for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:28:52 -0700 Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 13so551233nzp for ; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:28:47 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=LSoviaDhI3pg3ZDHKVOml0q+6941cwWIazMsI8u3mwZLd2AuKis2vCYhGCLfD839KltZNumB7D7XPcSM7YTjST7jMiln1TtJTzVL1cn1UKEKqU69CH/gAOVo5FxdmtOGO0tDAnFfPRl2v6N99lAEJFrc9Q6sPWKI+Uksa2nq7lA= Received: by 10.36.222.70 with SMTP id u70mr3114509nzg; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.67.6 with HTTP; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <737b61f305082020281349a706@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:28:47 -0500 From: Chris Capel To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] tanru with conversions In-Reply-To: <925d175605081718533a2d7159@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <737b61f30508141443b15fcc7@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560508161657244f2bb8@mail.gmail.com> <737b61f305081620163df3b83b@mail.gmail.com> <925d175605081706303f355307@mail.gmail.com> <737b61f305081711526ca8117c@mail.gmail.com> <737b61f305081717303fa5020a@mail.gmail.com> <925d175605081718533a2d7159@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 1798 X-Approved-By: pdf23ds@gmail.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: pdf23ds@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 8/17/05, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 8/17/05, Chris Capel wrote: > > So here's one last question on this. Is > > the tanru sense of {xunblabi kanla} and {xunblabi se kanla} the same, > > vagueness and all, out of context of this bridi? > > In theory, at least, yes. All we can say is that the relation {xunblabi} > is modifying the relation {kanla}/{se kanla} (which is the same relation, > it only differs in the order of the arguments). There are no specified > rules as to how the modification goes. > > >Or is it the case > > that the first would be preferred because the intended interpretation > > is more obvious, but the second allows that interpretation as well, > > and so is permissible, but less obvious? In other words, does {se > > kanla} suggest (even if it doesn't compel) that {xunblabi} is talking > > about the x2 of {kanla} instead of x1? > > It's hard to say. Why would it be more obvious that in {xunblabi broda} > {xunblabi} apply to the x1 of {broda} and not to the x2? Because {xunblabi} > is a color word? Because it is an "adjective"? Perhaps so, or perhaps > we are just being influenced by our natlangs. In any case there are > no rules in Lojban that tell us which one should be preferred, at least not > so far. pamai abu troci le nu catlu le cnita gi'e facki le du'u abu makau klama i ku'i dukse le ka manku kei le nu ka'e viska .i remai abu catlu lei mlana be le jintyke'a gi'e facki le du'u my culno loi se kajna tanxe ku joi loi cukta kajna OK, so what's the deal with {se kajna tanxe}? Does the first place of the seltau matter where the first place of the tertau doesn't? If no, then why ever use a place conversion on a seltau with no filled sumti? Is this discussed anywhere in CLL? And what exactly does {se kajna tanxe} mean? Boxes supported as if they were shelves? Or boxes on shelves? Something else? Chris Capel -- "What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?" -- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet)