From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Aug 21 21:32:52 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E73zQ-0003vI-KO for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:32:52 -0700 Received: from ms-smtp-03.texas.rr.com ([24.93.47.42] helo=ms-smtp-03-eri0.texas.rr.com) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E73zM-0003vA-GM for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:32:52 -0700 Received: from hypermetrics.com (cpe-66-68-164-156.austin.res.rr.com [66.68.164.156]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.texas.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j7M4WjRZ016780 for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:32:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <4309556D.4090207@hypermetrics.com> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:32:45 -0500 From: Hal Fulton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4.1) Gecko/20031114 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: "If you can read this..." References: <42FABD5E.5020302@hypermetrics.com> <5ccdc7530508102115390bfb17@mail.gmail.com> <430287E3.2080101@hypermetrics.com> <5ccdc75305081623121039d45a@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5ccdc75305081623121039d45a@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 1803 X-Approved-By: hal9000@hypermetrics.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: hal9000@hypermetrics.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners la cuncuxnas. wrote: > In that case, I might go with {do kakne lenu tcidu ti semu'i lenu ko > ckire la lojbangirz.}, meaning (roughly) "You are capable of > the-event-of reading this motivates the-event-of you (imp.) are grateful > to the Lojban Group." But that comes off sounding a little strange. > Using logical connectives, I'd say {ganai do kakne lenu tcidu ti gi ko > ckire la lojbangirz.} or "(if) you can read this (then) you (imp.) are > grateful to the Lojban Group." I don't know about the elegant/concise > ways, but those are the ways I know. You might also just say {ko ckire > la lojbangirz. lenu do kakne lenu tcidu ti}, since the x3 place of > 'ckire' is the reason for being grateful. If you want something close > to your original word order, then {lenu do kakne lenu tcidu ti cu te > ckire la lojbangirz. ko} works just fine, as does {fi lenu do kakne lenu > tcidu ti cu ckire fa ko la lojbangirz.} Both of those are just > variations on the basic sentence with 'ckire', but using various means > of swapping the sumti places. If anything is unclear, it's probably my > fault; I'm up well past my usual sleep-time. Concerning {do kakne lenu tcidu ti semu'i lenu ko ckire la lojbangirz.} I've been thinking about this a few days and I'm confused on several levels. :) 1. First of all, surely something like {semu'i} can join bridi? Just as, for example, we can say {la djan. nanmu .ija la djeimyz. ninmu} -- {.ija} joins two bridi, does it not? Why then should I have to use an abstractor like nu? (The entire ch 14 of the Lojban Ref Grammar does not use {lenu} anywhere.) 2. If I leave out the second {lenu} jbofi'e will still translate it. Is there a real difference in meaning? 3. It bothers me a little that "I can read" must be rendered using {lenu} -- {mi kakne lenu tcidu}. Is there another way? Does {mi tcidu kakne} make any sense? I wish there were cmavo for what in English we call modal auxiliaries. 4. It bothers me a tiny bit to talk about imperatives in connection with logic. After all, "If it is raining, you will carry an umbrella" seems (to me) fairly mathematical; but "If it is raining, carry an umbrella" seems less so. The statment "If it is raining, I will command you to carry an umbrella" seems more mathematical but less in tune with the actual meaning. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Thanks, Hal > mu'omi'e cuncuxnas. > > On 8/16/05, *Hal Fulton* > wrote: > > What I want to say is: "If you can read this, thank the Lojban Group." > > There must be multiple ways to say it. What are the elegant/concise > ways? > > And can you explain your own translations? Bear in mind I'm really new > at this. > > > Thanks, > Hal > > > > mu'omi'e cuncuxnas. > > > > On 8/10/05, *Hal Fulton* < hal9000@hypermetrics.com > > > >> wrote: > > > > Is this correct? > > > > do kakne cu tcidu ti seva'o ko ckire la lojbangirz. > > > > What are other/better ways to say it? > > > > > > Thanks, > > Hal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >