From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Sep 06 06:43:42 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 06 Sep 2005 06:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1ECdji-0008CA-BA for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 06:43:42 -0700 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.207]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1ECdja-0008C1-EI for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 06:43:42 -0700 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i21so610471wra for ; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 06:43:30 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=DxiUUPLAtSMjs7mlWdxfYXfFJvXjKosoDPUyiZB0Claf80S1fOB2nZmPaR2b5rRyOyHeoZyLrRXdbgm4M0WO55kPRI6SwJQIsFKEwCWFsYTTtjR/C2SArAKO9wZN/9uvgX9UEVAJmhfwbuAvuyKZkkFvf8+qihbLzaK4Cc54dAQ= Received: by 10.54.144.13 with SMTP id r13mr4382242wrd; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 06:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.66.7 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 06:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560509060643361ed03d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 10:43:29 -0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Lojban is poor for machine translation In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8649_3823054.1126014209861" References: X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 1982 X-Approved-By: jjllambias@gmail.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_8649_3823054.1126014209861 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 9/6/05, Naomi K wrote:=20 >=20 > "Loglans are poor MT interlinguas" -=20 > http://www.rickharrison.com/language/mtil.html >=20 > Most of you would probably know of this article, which argues that the=20 > syntax of Lojban is overly complex;=20 I agree. Fortunately, most of the bells and whistles that make it overly complex are hardly ever, or never, used.=20 Lojban as it is actually used is quite more simple than its definition. Some day we might have a simpler=20 syntax without losing continuity. sumti place structures are too rigid and counter-intuitive;=20 They are generally bloated, but since most superfluous places are in the last places this is not a terrible problem as they tend not to be used. Again, eventually some day=20 we will have better place structures without losing significant continuity. =20 that an artificial language would be more difficult to translate into=20 > natural languages as opposed to natural language to natural language=20 > translation;=20 I'm not sure I see why. =20 that required pauses are unnatural and impractical;=20 It is unfortunate that Lojban teaching material talks so=20 much about "pauses" instead of "glottal stops", which=20 are normal phonemes in many natural languages.=20 and that the compound words are difficult for ML to translate.=20 >=20 > What is your view of this argument? I don't really believe Lojban is especially helpful for=20 machine translation, but I don't think it's especially=20 unhelpful either. mu'o mi'e xorxes ------=_Part_8649_3823054.1126014209861 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline

On 9/6/05, N= aomi K <alien.juxta= position@gmail.com> wrote:
"Loglans are poor MT interl= inguas" - http://www.rickharrison.com/language/mtil.html

Most of you would= probably know of this article, which argues that the syntax of Lojban is o= verly complex;
 
I agree. Fortunately, most of the bells and whistles that
make it overly complex are hardly ever, or never, used.
Lojban as it is actually used is quite more simple
than its definition. Some day we might have a simpler
syntax without losing continuity.

sumti place structures are too r= igid and counter-intuitive;
 
They are generally bloated, but since most superfluous
places are in the last places this is not a terrible problem
as they tend not to be used. Again, eventually some day
we will have better place structures without losing significant
continuity.
 

that an artificial language woul= d be more difficult to translate into natural languages as opposed to natur= al language to natural language translation;=20
 
 
I'm not sure I see why.
 

that required pauses are unnatur= al and impractical;
 
It is unfortunate that Lojban teaching material talks so
much about "pauses" instead of "glottal stops", wh= ich
are normal phonemes in many natural languages.

and that the compound words are = difficult for ML to translate.

What is your view of this argument?
 
I don't really believe Lojban is especially helpful for
machine translation, but I don't think it's especially
unhelpful either.
 
mu'o mi'e xorxes
 
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