From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Sep 21 23:28:14 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 21 Sep 2005 23:28:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1EIKZ4-0002Yz-2C for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 21 Sep 2005 23:28:14 -0700 Received: from mxsrv2.tranzpeer.net ([202.180.66.215]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA1:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1EIKYy-0002Yq-PB for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Wed, 21 Sep 2005 23:28:13 -0700 Received: from [203.184.14.75] (helo=gulik.co.nz) by mxsrv2.tranzpeer.net with ESMTP (Exim 4.34) id 1EIKYt-0001xH-JA for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Thu, 22 Sep 2005 18:28:05 +1200 Message-ID: <43324F3C.3000003@gulik.co.nz> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 18:29:16 +1200 From: Michael van der Gulik User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-GB; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040216 Debian/1.6.x.1-10 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Your PodCast References: <200509201757.07775.colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 2236 X-Approved-By: mikevdg@gulik.co.nz X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: mikevdg@gulik.co.nz Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners Matt Arnold wrote: > On 9/20/05, *Colin Wright* > wrote: > > Actually, I don't know if my comments about the PodCast will make > it to the > list - I'm having trouble getting things through. Here's a copy ... > > ---- > > Briefly, I think the "podcast" (whatever that is) was brilliant. I > downloaded > the MP3 and transcript and am working through it, understanding > the spoken > lojban and repeating the words. > > I have a real problem with part of it, though. Throughout the > letter "o" is > being pronounced as the vowel sound(s) in these words: > > low > though > toe > crow > > This includes, specifically, in the word "lojban". My > understanding from the > written material is that the "o" sound should be a pure vowel, > pronounced as > in "topic" or "hot". > > Can anyone enlighten me in this regard? > > I'll more on to other misunderstandings after we've got some > feedback on this > one. I have to repeat, though, that this is an awesome achievement. > > Kudos. .iosai > > ki'esai kalin. > Notice how I spell your name. You spelled it koe-leen. (Actually, you > might be correct, because I've heard of one or two Colins pronounced > koelin.) > You misunderstood what you have read. "Topic", "Colin", "hot", make an > "ahhh" sound. In Lojban this is always represented by the character > "a". (Lojban has no other "a" sounds such as the "a" in "Matt" or > "cat.") English speakers usually slur the "o" sound in "low", "crow", > "toe", to blend into the "oooo" sound (from flute, root, crude) on the > end of the vowel, and that is why "o" is almost always pronounce > impurely by English speakers. Listen in the broadcast to how I try to > pronouce "o" with what appears (to English speakers) to be a foreign > accent. This is a pure "o". Pronounce Lojban "Lowzhbahn" except > without the "oo" as in "you" creeping into the end of the letter "o". I'm confused. Quote from the grammar ref: [o] The preferred pronunciation of Lojban ``o''. As in the French ``haute (cuisine)'' or Spanish ``como''. There is no exact English equivalent of this sound. The nearest GA equivalent is the ``o'' of ``dough'' or ``joke'', but it is essential that the off-glide (a [w]-like sound) at the end of the vowel is not pronounced when speaking Lojban. The RP sound in these words is [«w] in IPA terms, and has no [o] in it at all; unless you can speak with a Scots, Irish, or American accent, you may have trouble with this sound. Pronunciation of haute: http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/pron/H0085700.wav But then... quote from the textbook: Vowels There are six vowels in Lojban. a as in /f*a*ther/ (not as in /h*a*t/) e as in /g*e*t/ i as in /mach*i*ne/ or (Italian) /v*i*no/ (not as in /h*i*t/) o as in /b*o*ld / or /m*o*re/ — not as in /s*o*/ (this should be a 'pure' sound.) u as in /c*oo*l/ (not as in /b*u*t/) So I pronounce 'Colin' as Lojbanic 'kolyn' with my New Zealand accent. Here, we never use "ahhh" in words such as Topic, Colin, hot... that's strictly North American English. Matt: pe'i I also think that you're pronouncing your "o"'s a bit too much as "low", and I can hear a slight dipthong creeping in. Michael.