From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Sep 21 23:55:37 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 21 Sep 2005 23:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1EIKzZ-0002oO-DQ for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 21 Sep 2005 23:55:37 -0700 Received: from mail.velocitynet.com.au ([203.17.154.99]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1EIKzU-0002oD-J1 for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Wed, 21 Sep 2005 23:55:37 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.velocitynet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id C70E897C1B8 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:55:27 +1000 (EST) Received: from mail.velocitynet.com.au ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.velocitynet.com.au [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12050-01 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:55:14 +1000 (EST) Received: from [192.168.1.155] (2.197.221.203.velocitynet.com.au [203.221.197.2]) by mail.velocitynet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C57497C1A5 for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:55:13 +1000 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: <43324F3C.3000003@gulik.co.nz> References: <200509201757.07775.colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> <43324F3C.3000003@gulik.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Message-Id: <25a35b7aff27d5a31d7ca7975f6233b9@ghostgun.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis From: jm Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Your PodCast Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:58:17 +1000 To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at velocitynet.com.au X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 2237 X-Approved-By: jeffm@ghostgun.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: jeffm@ghostgun.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners Did a quick look around the net for phonetic sound files and found this version of english vowels. http://multiweb.lib.calpoly.edu/medialib/epa/vowels.html Perhaps, robin or someone in the know would care to point to the english vowel that is closest. Then phonetics site with the exact sound to avoid confusion (with notation as well as sound if possible). How that makes sense as I'm trying to run out the door at the moment. Jeff. On 22/09/2005, at 4:29 PM, Michael van der Gulik wrote: > Matt Arnold wrote: > >> On 9/20/05, *Colin Wright* > > wrote: >> >> Actually, I don't know if my comments about the PodCast will make >> it to the >> list - I'm having trouble getting things through. Here's a copy >> ... >> >> ---- >> >> Briefly, I think the "podcast" (whatever that is) was brilliant. I >> downloaded >> the MP3 and transcript and am working through it, understanding >> the spoken >> lojban and repeating the words. >> >> I have a real problem with part of it, though. Throughout the >> letter "o" is >> being pronounced as the vowel sound(s) in these words: >> >> low >> though >> toe >> crow >> >> This includes, specifically, in the word "lojban". My >> understanding from the >> written material is that the "o" sound should be a pure vowel, >> pronounced as >> in "topic" or "hot". >> >> Can anyone enlighten me in this regard? >> >> I'll more on to other misunderstandings after we've got some >> feedback on this >> one. I have to repeat, though, that this is an awesome >> achievement. >> >> Kudos. .iosai >> >> ki'esai kalin. >> Notice how I spell your name. You spelled it koe-leen. (Actually, you >> might be correct, because I've heard of one or two Colins pronounced >> koelin.) >> You misunderstood what you have read. "Topic", "Colin", "hot", make >> an "ahhh" sound. In Lojban this is always represented by the >> character "a". (Lojban has no other "a" sounds such as the "a" in >> "Matt" or "cat.") English speakers usually slur the "o" sound in >> "low", "crow", "toe", to blend into the "oooo" sound (from flute, >> root, crude) on the end of the vowel, and that is why "o" is almost >> always pronounce impurely by English speakers. Listen in the >> broadcast to how I try to pronouce "o" with what appears (to English >> speakers) to be a foreign accent. This is a pure "o". Pronounce >> Lojban "Lowzhbahn" except without the "oo" as in "you" creeping into >> the end of the letter "o". > > I'm confused. > > Quote from the grammar ref: > > [o] > The preferred pronunciation of Lojban ``o''. As in the French > ``haute (cuisine)'' or Spanish ``como''. There is no exact English > equivalent of this sound. The nearest GA equivalent is the ``o'' of > ``dough'' or ``joke'', but it is essential that the off-glide (a > [w]-like sound) at the end of the vowel is not pronounced when > speaking Lojban. The RP sound in these words is [«w] in IPA terms, > and has no [o] in it at all; unless you can speak with a Scots, > Irish, or American accent, you may have trouble with this sound. > > Pronunciation of haute: > http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/pron/H0085700.wav > > But then... quote from the textbook: > > > Vowels > > There are six vowels in Lojban. > > a > > as in /f*a*ther/ (not as in /h*a*t/) > > e > > as in /g*e*t/ > > i > > as in /mach*i*ne/ or (Italian) /v*i*no/ (not as in /h*i*t/) > > o > > as in /b*o*ld / or /m*o*re/ — not as in /s*o*/ (this should be a > 'pure' sound.) > > u > > as in /c*oo*l/ (not as in /b*u*t/) > > > So I pronounce 'Colin' as Lojbanic 'kolyn' with my New Zealand accent. > Here, we never use "ahhh" in words such as Topic, Colin, hot... that's > strictly North American English. > > Matt: pe'i I also think that you're pronouncing your "o"'s a bit too > much as "low", and I can hear a slight dipthong creeping in. > > Michael. > > >