From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Sep 22 08:23:05 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1EISue-0003eK-Oz for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:23:04 -0700 Received: from zproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.162.207]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1EISuX-0003dp-22 for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:23:04 -0700 Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id n29so19554nzf for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:22:56 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=dYzKip2z5O71IwDoJwAESdHGI4PozWHr8ltVGVrU0cmwxISonIHutOyXzhz2xYk/uqv6dCZS7xJGp17rSVVlh2cCnt0lpS1JlKZmr5etevP6iCXM8pRjgNvbbO1fvjXBpPd++wXnDF1T3d2he6j9s0IGmnFcnB+9FbrqCmDex4U= Received: by 10.36.59.12 with SMTP id h12mr539715nza; Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.61.18 with HTTP; Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <737b61f305092208229e0e702@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:22:54 -0500 From: Chris Capel To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Continuing with beginner vocabulary tools ... In-Reply-To: <200509221146.25195.colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <200509221146.25195.colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 2247 X-Approved-By: pdf23ds@gmail.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: pdf23ds@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 9/22/05, Colin Wright wrote: > Using a "flash card" type program, it's a start to connect a lojban gismu with > an english keyword, but there are also the places and the rafsi (if any) to > learn. > > Memory drill systems, including mine, generally require short answers but > allow long questions. What should the questions be in this case to ensure > that the user/client/beginner/customer/learner remembers *all* of the > necessary information. For example, just how vital is it that they can > produce the rafsi given the english keyword? Here's what I've done. I've included the place structure in all the gismu I've been learning. All of it. I think that it's important to do this, as the nature of the relationship can be determined quite a bit by its places, and it's important to have a good clue what the entire relationship is about. Of course, it's also very important to know the places. :-) So when I forget one of the first to places, but not the other, I've gotten a pretty basic aspect of the gismu wrong and I fail the item. But when I forget one of the higher places, but get the rest of it basically right, I create a new item that has only that one place, and I make a note on that place in the other item so I remember next time I review the gismu. This way the item ends up taking about as many different items as it needs to be. An item isn't dragged down by one particularly difficult-to-remember place. Also, I usually ignore it when I get a place wrong that I think is unlikely to be used much at all, usually the "by standard" place (though in a few words the "by standard" place is pretty important). I've found that this method is actually pretty effective. It's rare that I remember most of the word but not all of it. Most of the time I don't remember the place structure explicitly, but instead remember the different places associated with the word and then figure out the order. I only remember the order explicitly when it's counterintuitive, or unpredictable. ("observer" and "in property" places can be in either order. "observer" is usually second, but "property" in slabu and cnino, and some others, is second for some reason.) I think that a vertical format for gismu places is much easier to quickly scan to ensure that you've answered correctly, so I've been reformatting all the gismu definitions to look like this: zukte ------- x1: a sentience x2: a means, an action x3: goal of action Some gismu don't have an easy way to define them by giving each place a noun, so sometimes I give the place an adjective or two: milxe ------- x1: is mild/non-extreme/gentle/middling/somewhat in x2: property (ka) In many cases the meaning of the word is contained more in the supposed relation between the places than in any particular thing supposed about the places. So whenever necessary, I move the verbiage to the line between the places: manci ------- x1 wonders/awes/marvels at x2 Once I've finished doing all the gismu, I'll probably publish this reformatted version of the wordlist. As for the rafsi, I think a better way to learn rafsi is indirectly. So I propose the best way is to start learning lots of lujvo, making two items for each. One item has the full definition, and can be formatted vertically as in the gismu. The other item has the lujvo as the question, and the full gismu it's made up of as the answer. Example: falcru (rafsi) -------- farlu curmi This way you don't bother as much with the uncommon rafsi, and you also have a handy mnemonic device to use. And it helps you with the meaning of the lujvo as well. Chris Capel -- "What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?" -- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet)