From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Dec 14 19:14:46 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 14 Dec 2005 19:14:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1EmjZt-0004qo-TC for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 14 Dec 2005 19:14:46 -0800 Received: from dionysos.oderland.com ([213.115.211.26]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.54) id 1EmjZo-0004qf-4v for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 14 Dec 2005 19:14:45 -0800 Received: from c-0b92e255.1210-16-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se ([85.226.146.11]) by dionysos.oderland.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.52) id 1EmjZj-0007XN-CQ for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 15 Dec 2005 04:14:36 +0100 Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: ok, lambda/currying-geeks needed (was Re: Re: "Once More") From: Sunnan To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <20051214202834.GR3616@chain.digitalkingdom.org> References: <12d58c160512120619v1ed1cdcp49af8ae1b4f3f86a@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560512121409o663e2a7ekae04309af89c599a@mail.gmail.com> <762741971.20051213083403@mail.ru> <1134564388.5808.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <925d17560512141053h13e65826t1f4e53636fab6088@mail.gmail.com> <1134588279.5808.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20051214202834.GR3616@chain.digitalkingdom.org> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 04:14:22 +0100 Message-Id: <1134616462.5808.103.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus-Scanner: Clean mail though you should still use an Antivirus X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - dionysos.oderland.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - lojban.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - handgranat.org X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 2783 X-Approved-By: sunnan@handgranat.org X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: sunnan@handgranat.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Wed, 2005-12-14 at 12:28 -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > No. Believe me, I've tried. There is no way at all to stick VU'U > in front of ROI, no matter how you wrap it. > > I could, of course, be wrong. I'm certainly not an expert. (Please also see my answer to xorxes.) > > I do totally dislike Lojbans attitudinal system[1] > [snip] > > Interesting. That's one of my favorite parts of the language. Maybe because I don't know it well enough (I took such an instant dislike to it that I didn't learn it further). I'm liking it more now already. > > Another is that it's constructed from a list of English emotions > > -- one of the first things I wanted to write/say was an > > attitudinal to replace "the tone of voice you have when revealing > > a great secret", and of course, non exists. I've seen complaints > > by others that there's also no simple attitudinal for non-English > > concepts like shadenfreude or ennui and I agree with this problem. > > Adding more is certainly possible. Having said that, however, > you're talking about *incredibly* complex emotional states. Hardly > the things one uses intejections for. Are there interjections in > German or French for these emotions? I doubt it. Maybe there's a special laughter that some humans use only for shadenfreude? And special tears for ennui. > Having said all that: > > "the tone of voice you have when revealing a great secret" isn't an > emotion, of course, but I think you're looking for something like > "ti'e vu'e nai .u'e" Yes, that could certainly work for some situations -- I especially like the u'e in that context. > Schadenfreude is ".ui nai dai .ui" or "le'o .ui", possibly with vu'e > nai thrown in. uinaidai.ui is great. It doesn't have the connotations of aggression, cruelty or sin -- if either of those are to be implied, they can be added. > > It's so limited, static, frozen. > > That's what experimental cmavo space is for. Alright. > > Here's more: > > Nausea, > > Nausea is *NOT* an emotion. It's not? Maybe "nausea" is not the word I'm looking for, then, I'm looking for a word/interjection for the emotion I always have when I feel nausea. > Having said that, again, ".a'u nai ro'o" or ".au nai ro'o" both fit > pretty well. Yes. > > suspicion, > > That's just .ii I'm thinking more like mistrust. > > jealousy, > > .i'o nai Yes. > > righteousness, > > vu'e That's a perfect fit! Thanks. > > and more? > > This is a fun game. Why stop now? I'm glad it didn't annoy you! (Would that be ui.o'odai?) > > Some of these may exist but it's not an easy system to find my way > > around, > > That's something the BPFK is trying to work on. I'm happy to hear that. > I think you may miss the point of the UI cmavo: the point of them is > *not* to make complex, analytical statements about emotion. The > point is to have noises that are built into your brain as "the sound > I make to express an internal emotional state", like "ow" in > English, and to have lots of them, and to have them appear in > dictionaries. > > If you're thinking about attitudinals before you say them, you're > using them incorrectly. I'm thinking hard before I put them in the mouth of characters in fiction. The same goes for all non-native languages I'd write in, whether it's english, french, swedish outside my local cant/argot, or lojban. > This, unfortunately, includes basically > everyone, AFAIK. For now.