From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Dec 15 09:16:22 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:16:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1EmwiM-0001oJ-HI for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:16:22 -0800 Received: from dionysos.oderland.com ([213.115.211.26]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.54) id 1EmwiI-0001oA-Bl for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:16:22 -0800 Received: from c-0b92e255.1210-16-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se ([85.226.146.11]) by dionysos.oderland.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.52) id 1Emwi6-0001Eb-3W for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 15 Dec 2005 18:16:07 +0100 Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: ok, lambda/currying-geeks needed (was Re: Re: "Once More") From: Sunnan To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <925d17560512150509k27e32655keb2597e87d445634@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d58c160512120619v1ed1cdcp49af8ae1b4f3f86a@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560512121409o663e2a7ekae04309af89c599a@mail.gmail.com> <762741971.20051213083403@mail.ru> <1134564388.5808.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <925d17560512141053h13e65826t1f4e53636fab6088@mail.gmail.com> <1134588279.5808.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <925d17560512141218q4ac20542ma2b219d953ee80f@mail.gmail.com> <1134615224.5808.83.camel@localhost.localdomain> <925d17560512150509k27e32655keb2597e87d445634@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 18:15:54 +0100 Message-Id: <1134666955.8718.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-Antivirus-Scanner: Clean mail though you should still use an Antivirus X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - dionysos.oderland.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - lojban.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - handgranat.org X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 2787 X-Approved-By: sunnan@handgranat.org X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: sunnan@handgranat.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Thu, 2005-12-15 at 10:09 -0300, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 12/14/05, Sunnan wrote: > > Can variables such as 'ti' be used? > > No, only strings of PA (and lerfu, but the string must start with a PA). > The relevant part of the grammar is this: > > interval-property = number ROI [NAI] | TAhE [NAI] | ZAhO [NAI] > > number = PA [PA | lerfu-word] ... > > lerfu-string = lerfu-word [PA | lerfu-word] ... > > lerfu-word = BY | any-word BU | LAU lerfu-word | TEI lerfu-string FOI > > So you can see that the only selmaho that enter into it are PA, > BY, BU, LAU TEI and FOI. I guess I'll have to take a look at the full BNF myself one of these days; I keep coming up with crazy things like "tibu". (I haven't slept! Please forgive me.) > I don't know what $_ does, but there are no variables in PA, > except perhaps for {no'o}. (In perl, if you call an operator or function without specifying a variable, it uses whatever's in the variable $_ by default. (At least that was how it was explained to me. I keep meaning to look up how it really works.)) I guess what I really was wondering was if you could use variables in front of ROI; the grammar you quoted says number only. I'll need to look deeper into that. > {iu iunai} is a possible combination. One does not exclude the other. Yes, I meant subconsciously. I believe that it affects the brain to have one be the -nai of the other. > Ideally we should not associate {u'i nai} to a particular English word. > It is neither weariness nor ennui, exactly. It is {u'i nai}, which may > not coincide precisely with the feeling described by a particular word. > The English keywords are just indications of a general semantic area. Thanks for reminding me. That is an important point. > > > I'd still wish there weren't so much reliance on "nai"; that nai could > > be a compliment to available opposing words. (Just like xla- in lojban > > today -- it's used, but most of the time there are different words for > > different things.) > > You must mean tol-, not xla-. Yes. > > > You can construct an attitudinal from a selbri with sei + selbri. > > > > Really? > > > > .ibi'usei se mipri noda jetnu > > Would that really work? > > That's correct lojban. I'm not sure the example is very clear without > more context ("nothing is true"?). It's from one of the myths about the original hashish assassin sect. The last revelation was "nothing is true, all is permissible", I've been toying with various translation attempts of this sentence since I first started looking at lojban. > > > As for their free grammar, I think that's a plus, although they might > > > have been easier to use if they modified what follows them rather > > > than what precedes them. > > > > I kinda like that part, you can add it to a name to instantly judge that > > person, like mi pu terxa'a fe la xorxes.i'e > > Attitudinals are most often wanted to attach either to a whole sentence > or to a sumti. For whole sentences, they go after the .i, or conventionally > in initial position when there is no ".i". With KOhAs there is no > problem in placing the attitudinal after it, but with LE+selbri or more > complex sumti, you need to use ku so that the attitudinal doesn't end > up modifying the selbri. This is extremely cumbersome. My impression > is that {le gerku po'o} will end up meaning "the dog and nothing else" and > not "the thing that I describe as being nothing but a dog". (In fact, it is > rather frequent for people to say {po'o le gerku} when they mean > {le gerku ku po'o}, because of the English word order.) I see. Thanks for the heads up. (Wait. Does that mean that I should've written mi pu terxa'a fe la xorxes ku.i'e ?