From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Jan 12 07:16:33 2006
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:16:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60)
	(envelope-from <nobody@digitalkingdom.org>)
	id 1Ex4Bl-00024S-A4
	for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:16:33 -0800
Received: from zproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.162.198])
	by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60)
	(envelope-from <matt.mattarn@gmail.com>)
	id 1Ex4Bi-00024J-PD
	for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:16:33 -0800
Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id v1so447119nzb
        for <lojban-beginners@lojban.org>; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:16:29 -0800 (PST)
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
        s=beta; d=gmail.com;
        h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references;
        b=laweLsBZPApj41+4qHEf9NlR3EnuxKPUSEQn7MGuOvKS3uAeQfoKsBHu1Urb/xAH8g8ZGq13YqQDcnQ2tTE7gVOCNTo6y3EvmmP4G47b1xxgSayPWvHfUe02+c7esjh1f8Z/o0xaFJ0I4rm+GnBCoLHShRF26dNT7lmHJFkV0BY=
Received: by 10.65.107.11 with SMTP id j11mr693079qbm;
        Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:16:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.65.110.14 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:16:27 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <e6663d200601120716y68717d05r97a84c482844eb30@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 10:16:27 -0500
From: Matt Arnold <matt.mattarn@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: kevzu'i
In-Reply-To: <685277509.20060112132810@mail.ru>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis
Content-Disposition: inline
References: <685277509.20060112132810@mail.ru>
X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--)
X-archive-position: 2946
X-Approved-By: matt.mattarn@gmail.com
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org
Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org
X-original-sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
X-list: lojban-beginners

On 1/12/06, Yanis Batura <ybatura@mail.ru> wrote:
>
> kevzu'i is my first attempt to create a lujvo.
> This one is a lujvo for "stub" (Wikipedia-like).
> I tried to translate it as "the thing which blocks a hole/breach".
> Rather quickly I found gismu for both "to block" - {zunti}, and
> "hole" - {kevna}, and proudly composed {kevzu'i}. Since that was used
> only as a malglicean analogue of the English noun, that was enough for
> me.
>
> Yesterday I've finally went through the CLL Chapter 12 about the place
> structure of lujvo, and decided to work out the place structure of
> {kevzu'i}. Now I don't understand how to do that. Because:
>
> kevna k1 is a cavity/hole/hollow/cavern in k2;
> zunti z1 (evt./state) interferes with/hinders/disrupts z2
> (evt./state/process) due to quality z3 (ka) [also blocks, obstructs, baffles; not necessarily forcing cessation]
>
> Obviously we should make the following pattern for {kevzu'i}:
> z1 stubs a hole k1=z2 in k2
> But k1 cannot be equal to z2 (because z2 must be a LE + NU sumti).
> What can I do?
>
> mi'e .ianis.
>

Yanis,

I have become very interested in studying the creation of lujvo and
trying to increase my skills in this area. Unfortunately, it's
difficult to get practice because when I admit in public to making a
lujvo, it is sometimes mistaken for an official act on behalf of the
Lojban language, rather than as practicea and learning. As long as we
make it clear that we are practicing with nonce lujvo, we'll be OK.

I would suggest {se tisna}, "that which x is filled with", instead of
{zunti}, "interfere", since the item in question is not interfering
with anything escaping through the hole. I would also suggest {se
claxu}, "that which is lacked", instead of {kevna}, because {kevna}
implies a physical shape in material. If you said {kevzu'i} I would
understand your meaning, but perhaps it can be improved.

Unfortunately both of the selbri which I have proposed are modified
with {se}, and that confounds my puny lujvo-skills. I know that the
rafsi for {se} is {sel}, but can it be used twice in the same lujvo?

As a result, the following nonce lujvo for "stop-gap" seems like a
bizarre high-powered mutant never intended for mass production-- too
strange to live, too rare to die. But I am presenting it as practice
with a request for educational comments.

{selcauseltis} x1=y1 is that which fills deficiency y2 in object x2

-epkat