From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Jan 24 12:17:29 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:19:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1F1UbZ-0001Lm-6T for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:17:29 -0800 Received: from smtp.mail.umich.edu ([141.211.14.81] helo=hackers.mr.itd.umich.edu) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1F1UbW-0001Ld-Re for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:17:28 -0800 Received: FROM galaxian.gpcc.itd.umich.edu (galaxian.gpcc.itd.umich.edu [141.211.2.217]) BY hackers.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 43D68B54.F2694.4957 ; 24 Jan 2006 15:17:25 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 15:17:23 -0500 (EST) From: Alex Joseph Martini X-X-Sender: alexjm@galaxian.gpcc.itd.umich.edu To: Alex Joseph Martini Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: pamoi le'i dotco prenu poi ... In-Reply-To: <1283088462.20060124161953@mail.ru> Message-ID: References: <4c4e58c10601230530m32e0e983n89c540292d4a7057@mail.gmail.com> <20060123140904.91972.qmail@web51509.mail.yahoo.com> <12d58c160601230746i5e329fa4g5344661615d4ff34@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560601231021x704fa432sffdcad518fa93f6f@mail.gmail.com> <1283088462.20060124161953@mail.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 3014 X-Approved-By: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: alexjm@umich.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ki'esai .ianis At the risk of malglico lojban, I will try to gloss the parts of this to see if I am making sense of it: {do pa moi} you are first (in the set) {lo dotco prenu} German people [moi x1 = set] {lo ka ...} the quality of ...[moi x2 = ordering rule] {... mi penmi ...} I meet {... ce'u} refers all the way back 'up' to a specific German person {ca ma kau} at what time (rhetorical) So it seems to me that the {ce'u}, which I keep seeing called a lambda variable or placeholder really just fulfills the place of a 'who' or 'them' in English -- it sticks a sumti from higher in the structure into a place in a sub-clause. Would it be correct then to say "This is the first of my books that I have sold." as {ti pa moi lo mi cukta lo ka mi vecnu ce'u} ? mu'o mi'e .aleks. On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, Yanis Batura wrote: > doi .aleks. di'e bau la gliban. > > > {do pa moi lo dotco prenu lo ka mi penmi ce'u ca ma kau} > > Explanation. The x2 of {pa moi} is the ordering rule. > xorxes suggests to order the set of German people by the date "when I > met them". Ordering rule here must be a ka (quality), > so the quality is {ka mi penmi ce'u ca ma kau [kei]}. > or, literally, "the quality of my meeting them [=ce'u], at what time"? > {ma kau} stands here, because "when" is an indirect question. > > mi'e .ianis. > > > > > > >