From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Mar 07 13:37:00 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 07 Mar 2006 13:37:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FGjrY-00025o-1g for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2006 13:37:00 -0800 Received: from nproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.182.193]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FGjrU-00025h-Bl for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 07 Mar 2006 13:36:59 -0800 Received: by nproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id c2so23608nfe for ; Tue, 07 Mar 2006 13:36:54 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=D6mUPfetpsZw90Va94trKebKweAM7P7qEkk2L2tapeJ8Bc6IhWO4KRIG0dyI/MERjFJpogETIScbbvynXDcqr9+5nzAugnsZL3urak0TicSN1Na03ZwHYPbqq/j8Mb+sKb8ZkISFFUIsBA0wWJXXAXU1ZsptFsgpd976kUtCPxU= Received: by 10.48.238.20 with SMTP id l20mr3160616nfh; Tue, 07 Mar 2006 13:36:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.49.51.7 with HTTP; Tue, 7 Mar 2006 13:36:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 16:36:54 -0500 From: "Matt Arnold" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Confusion with Lojban For Beginners In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3507_18720398.1141767414296" References: <200603071945.44840.jim-digitalkingdom.org-lojban@jimdabell.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 3087 X-Approved-By: matt.mattarn@gmail.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_3507_18720398.1141767414296 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline {pritu} tells you where Julia is. Julia is "to the right," but that is a relative term. The direction Julia is facing has got nothing to do with finding where she is, so that is not what it means. Only two things tell yo= u where Julia is: #1 Who or what is Julia to the right of? Maria. #2 Which way is Maria facing? The location of "to the right of Maria" changes as Maria turns around. x3 is the landmark you use to orient the scene in your imagination; that's what it means by a frame of reference. A very loose interpretation of {la .iulias. pritu la mari,as. la klaudias.} is "Imagine Maria facing Claudia, and then look at the right side of Maria, and that is where Julia is." -epkat On 3/7/06, Alex Joseph Martini wrote: > > On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, Jim Dabell wrote: > > [ clip ] > > > > Near the middle, it states that pritu means: > > > > x1 is to the right of x2, where x2 is facing x3 > > > > However, in the examples at the bottom, it translates: > > > > la .iulias. pritu la mari,as. la klaudias. > > > > ...as: > > > > Julia is to the right of Maria, facing Claudia. > > > > Which reads very much like it is Julia facing Claudia, not Maria. If > > I understand the above definition of pritu correctly, the original > > Lojban says that it is not Julia facing Claudia, but Maria. > > The root of this problem is that English doesn't mark who is facing > Claudia. I have understood the lojban to mean that, when a particular > observer is facing Claudia, Julia is to the right of Maria. Sort of as > follows: > > Maria Julia > > Claudia > > (observer) > > I'm not sure that I'm specifically correct, but I hope that I'm at least > clearer. Either way about it, I've used this definition in my past > lojban and if it proves incorrect they will need an update. > > mu'omi'e .alex. > > > [ clip ] > > > > ------=_Part_3507_18720398.1141767414296 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline {pritu} tells you where Julia is. Julia is "to the right," but th= at is a relative term. The direction Julia is facing has got nothing to do = with finding where she is, so that is not what it means. Only two things te= ll you where Julia is:

#1 Who or what is Julia to the right of? Maria.

#2 Which wa= y is Maria facing? The location of "to the right of Maria" change= s as Maria turns around. x3 is the landmark you use to orient the scene in = your imagination; that's what it means by a frame of reference.

A very loose interpretation of {la .iulias. pritu la mari,as. la kl= audias.} is "Imagine Maria facing Claudia, and then look at the right = side of Maria, and that is where Julia is."

-epkat


On 3/7/06, A= lex Joseph Martini <alexjm@umich= .edu> wrote:
On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, Jim Dabell wrote:
> [ clip ]
>
> Near= the middle, it states that pritu means:
>
> x1 is to the right= of x2, where x2 is facing x3
>
> However, in the examples at t= he bottom, it translates:
>
> la .iulias. pritu la mari,as. la klaudias.
>
>= ...as:
>
> Julia is to the right of Maria, facing Claudia.
= >
> Which reads very much like it is Julia facing Claudia, not Mar= ia.  If
> I understand the above definition of pritu correctly, the original=
> Lojban says that it is not Julia facing Claudia, but Maria.
The root of this problem is that English doesn't mark who is facing
Claudia. I have understood the lojban to mean that, when a particular
ob= server is facing Claudia, Julia is to the right of Maria. Sort of as
fol= lows:

Maria       Julia

Claudia=

(observer)

I'm not sure that I'm specifically correct, but I hope that I'm at leastclearer. Either way about it, I've used this definition in my past
lojb= an and if it proves incorrect they will need an update.

mu'omi'e .al= ex.

> [ clip ]




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