From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Mar 08 12:24:53 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 08 Mar 2006 12:24:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FH5DJ-0004Jt-4v for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 12:24:53 -0800 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.202]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FH5DH-0004Jm-7b for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 12:24:52 -0800 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i32so256023wra for ; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 12:24:49 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=PAhQmz+YBUf5vr28TWzEn9TNo/KT1reRLj+lnYiQXKH4tHqyfsxOqy2IBr6/rFGW996JE9oQa1TAXMk0tU7sNpCBLPRJk4AFLWk6l924F6VF1PiaR+XMAVRhMD82L+p1FYyqe7xVc9U/D2NSWKtjzx/90sZRxIExMklNMC73yw8= Received: by 10.54.116.8 with SMTP id o8mr1230514wrc; Wed, 08 Mar 2006 12:24:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.69.3 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Mar 2006 12:24:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560603081224q19664e2p7b0fd0b016ab917b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 17:24:48 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Confusion with Lojban For Beginners In-Reply-To: <200603072127.12820.phma@phma.optus.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <200603071945.44840.jim-digitalkingdom.org-lojban@jimdabell.com> <200603072127.12820.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 3090 X-Approved-By: jjllambias@gmail.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Interesting. I count five different interpretations so far. Giving directions in Lojban is sure going to be fun. :) la .iulias. pritu la mari,as. la klaudias. 1) Julia is facing Claudia. 2) Maria is facing Claudia. 3) Julia is to the right of Maria from Claudia's point of view. 4) An observer facing Claudia (but standing where?) would see Julia to the right of Maria. 5) If Maria (or better someone standing where she is) were to face Claudia, Julia would be on her (Maria's) right. Now, I think we can discard 1 and 2 immediately because we want to be able to use {pritu} to talk about things that don't face anywhere. "The red ball is to the right of the blue ball". So which way are x1 and x2 facing should be irrelevant, no matter what the English glosses suggest. We can discard 4 because it is ambiguous. Depending on where you place the observer you can always make them see Julia to the right of Maria, so the claim would be empty. That leaves 3 and 5 as contenders, unfortunately, they often give opposite results. The definition as stated suggests 5, but 3 is better, because 5 is ambiguous in situations where there is no up and down defined. Also, 3 is the most natural: {la iulias pritu la mari,as} =(usually) {la iulias pritu la mari,as mi} {la iulias pritu la mari,as ri} = Julia is on Maria's right hand side. {la iulias pritu la mari,as la klaudias} = Julia is to the right of Maria from Claudia's point of view. So, I would agree with Pierre and Jim's third option (although some of the other options can be defended based on the wording of the definition). mu'o mi'e xorxes