From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Apr 10 18:35:57 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FT7nR-00019F-3f for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:35:57 -0700 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.238]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FT7nP-000197-6K for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:35:56 -0700 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i21so932073wra for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:35:53 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=FpBzKG5Y5az9tNhdMJZcx2bRxcywYNjj4VpmOq2MinxxXH04mHkBiJUfKrB5oDuYnBruI6V5DOLZaXvmpZO07kyNbJX8wu9+2o/SeYdg1Pn+0WInZedWzxqRR9WoJbCUC6vBoutBoE3jPPjaGy85Tvg9J0dxyWviULuzELVpIF4= Received: by 10.54.93.7 with SMTP id q7mr446747wrb; Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.67.19 with HTTP; Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560604101835n7a4232f2t1b4577ff0fcf565b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 22:35:53 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: association (pe/be) In-Reply-To: <20060411000537.8892.qmail@web36501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060411000537.8892.qmail@web36501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 3145 X-Approved-By: jjllambias@gmail.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 4/10/06, Andrew Heathwaite wrote: > This brings me to my main question, which is, can we use 'be' the > same way to show an explicit association using the place structure of > the main brivla? For example: > > le be mi zdani > the of me home > my home > > Is this grammatical? No, it's not. There is an important syntactic difference between {be} and {pe}: {be} attaches a sumti to a brivla: { be }, filling an argument place of the brivla. The resulting construction is a more complex brivla, so it can for example be converted into a sumti with {le}, like other brivla. But it can also be used in other places that a brivla can be used, for example as part of a tanru. { be } is the only grammatical order for this construction. {pe} attaches a sumti to another sumti pe . For simple one-word sumti, the {pe } can only follow. For sumti of the form {le broda ku} there are three places where the {pe } can be attached: le (pe ) broda ku le broda (pe ) ku le broda ku (pe ) but in all cases you need a full sumti where you can attach the {pe }. > If not, does that mean that whenever we want to > say "my home", we have to say "le zdani be mi" and there's no way to > switch them around? You can say {le mi zdani}, which is equivalent to {le zdani pe mi}. This may be the house where you live (the most likely interpretation), but it may also be any other house associated with you, depending on the context (maybe a house that you built). You can also say {le pe fe mi zdani}, strangely enough. mu'o mi'e xorxes