From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Aug 17 08:03:49 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1GDjPN-0001zz-Vw for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:03:47 -0700 Received: from mout2.freenet.de ([194.97.50.155]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1GDjPG-0001za-Df for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:03:43 -0700 Received: from [194.97.55.192] (helo=mx8.freenet.de) by mout2.freenet.de with esmtpa (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1GDjPD-000309-Oi for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 17:03:35 +0200 Received: from 239-220-dsl.kielnet.net ([89.27.220.239] helo=[192.168.0.2]) by mx8.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID m.graff@freenet.de) (Exim 4.62 #2) id 1GDjPD-0006dS-F5 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 17:03:35 +0200 Message-ID: <44E48545.9090001@freenet.de> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 17:03:33 +0200 From: Michael Graff User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: de-DE, de, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] ti/ta/tu, zo'e, da Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-archive-position: 3516 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: m.graff@freenet.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners coi rodo poi se cinri la lojban. What are the exact meanings of the words {ti}, {ta}, {tu}? Is {ti/ta/tu} just an (indeed practical) abbreviation for {lo vi/va/vu se jarco be mi} for the sake of brevity and lucidity? I was surprised to read that {zo'e} seems to be a kind of definite pronoun: "[zo'e] viska mi" means "'You-know-what' sees me." (see Chapter 16, Section 2, "Lojban Reference Grammar"). So {mi viska} means the same as {mi viska zo'e zo'e} which means "I see something, and you know what I see and under which conditions I see." In contrast {mi senva le tumla be vu mi} means "I dream of something I have in my mind; I don't presume that you have the same something in your mind. Therefore I try to describe it for you. It seems to be a land which is far away from me." Do I understand {zo'e} and {le} correctly? (I guess the answer is "no", but in that case I would be bewildered by the confusing remarks about {zo'e}). I have read the passage about {zo'e} because I've been interested in the difference between {da} and {zo'e}. {da} has the minimal meaning of a sumti. {da terpa mi} just means "There exists something which terrifies me." 1. Question: Could this source of fear be an illusion, or is {da} used only for physically existent somethings? 2. Question: {da terpa mi} means "Something terrifies me." {[zo'e] terpa mi} seems to be used interchangebly - in contradiction to the quoted explanation in the "Lojban Reference Grammer". And why two different wordes for the same meaning? > I wrote, with lots of help from at #javascript, this > http://mysite.verizon.net/res8szeo/numbertrainer.html. [...] > Hope it helps someone other than me. It does, for example me. :) It will help me, who is a beginner with a the need for practice, to use numbers more fluently. > "loi cmaci", for it must be a sumti. Thanks for the correction. > That is, in my opinion both {fe'o} and {mu'o} would fit better than {fa'o}. I was mistaken and understand hopefully better now. "ku'i la'a lo nu seba'i zo fa'o cu cusku zo fe'o e zo mu'o cu zmadu lo ka mundra" means the same as "ku'i la'a lo nu seba'i zo fa'o cu cusku zo fe'o cu zmadu lo ka mundra .ije ku'i la'a lo nu seba'i zo fa'o cu cusku zo mu'o cu zmadu lo ka mundra", right? > A "cu" is needed after the relative clause: > le ninmu poi se prami mi cu pu cliva ... Oh, that was a particularly useful correction. :) I try to translate a text in order to learn lojban: .i lo munje puzu citno .i ro cmana puzu crino .i noda poi barna lunra cu puzu se viska .i roda poi puzu flecu gi'a puzu rokci cu puzu na'e se cmene .i ca lonu lo munje puzu citno kei la durin. binxo lo cikna gi'e pavysei cadzu I've expressed that the events had happened in the far past. But how can I say that these events happened all nearly at the same time? Without this additional information the mentioned events could occur in a broad and chaotic order. mi'e MIxael. --- la lojban cinri .ijanai la'e dei jetnu mu'o