From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Aug 17 11:02:53 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1GDmCj-0006hF-L1 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:02:53 -0700 Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com ([64.233.162.206]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1GDmCh-0006h6-Sa for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:02:53 -0700 Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id n1so400159nzf for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:02:50 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=H6byzfdQGVDdrNho93+A17qVh5H4/rzTaYP6XxioRwKvjYn+uVQsug4MCcjTSrEIqB5s2wHeNNYTwOIMF6pLJJ+tDspPl1SPeobhGiT3uD/hwYt2qT/TiiBgl7t2mJXD9LbJIIl85U5adU8DOxM3oH7kownl9Ofurcp/37hXziI= Received: by 10.35.105.18 with SMTP id h18mr3980820pym; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.22.14 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560608171102v495b7e02ueff57256af1a4de9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:02:50 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: ti/ta/tu, zo'e, da In-Reply-To: <737b61f30608170953p6bcfdbcjd3a760a9b7914bcb@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <44E48545.9090001@freenet.de> <737b61f30608170837o57edbca7gd03473dfbcc15cd2@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560608170914g10720851w26239dd0001bdf6d@mail.gmail.com> <737b61f30608170953p6bcfdbcjd3a760a9b7914bcb@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-archive-position: 3522 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 8/17/06, Chris Capel wrote: > On 8/17/06, Jorge Llambías wrote: > > On 8/17/06, Chris Capel wrote: > > > > > > .i lo munje puzuki citno .i ro cmana cazu crino > > > > {ro cmana cabu'u crino} right? You have already fixed the > > reference place with {ki}, so a new {zu} will take you away from > > there. > > From reading the section I linked to, I think bu'u is rundant. {bu'u} is the spatial counterpart of {ca}. For some reason I read {cavu} instead of {cazu} and that's what I meant to replace with {cabu'u}. But since spatial tenses were not mentioned my {bu'u} was not really relevant. > "ca" by > itself would work as well, but would might imply a close proximity of > the two events, which I was trying to avoid by saying they're only > relatively proximate: something like "at the same time, which in the > context of these long time periods could be anywhere in a long time > period", or in other words, "in the same long time period". "caza" > would perhaps be better. {ca} only indicates simultaneity, it does not say anything about the duration of the two events. In this case the two events (the two states) would seem to be simultaneous. {za} indicates that the two events are separated by some (medium) length of time. > When you say "take you away from there" you mean "away from the > reference point", right? Or (I doubt) do you mean that it will somehow > unfix the reference? Yes, I mean away from the reference point. I was really thinking in spatial terms there, but the same applies in a temporal sense. > BTW, once a tense is stuck with "ki", how do you unstick it > completely? CLL isn't clear on the point. If you unstick it by saying > "pu ki ku broda .i ca ki ku brode", is the second "ca" interpreted > relative the first, or relative the null tense? Relative to the first. {nau ki} is absolute and brings you to the here and now.. I don't think you can unstick the reference without sticking it somewhere else. {ki nai} should be grammatical but isn't. mu'o mi'e xorxes