From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Aug 17 18:51:36 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 17 Aug 2006 18:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1GDtWJ-0008HZ-Qq for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 18:51:35 -0700 Received: from phma.optus.nu ([166.82.175.165] helo=ixazon.dynip.com) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1GDtWI-0008HK-QZ for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 18:51:35 -0700 Received: from [192.168.25.19] (unknown [192.168.25.19]) by ixazon.dynip.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F1D2CE29B for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2006 21:51:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: ti/ta/tu, zo'e, da Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 21:50:56 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.1 References: <44E48545.9090001@freenet.de> In-Reply-To: <44E48545.9090001@freenet.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200608172150.58938.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-archive-position: 3528 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: phma@phma.optus.nu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Thursday 17 August 2006 11:03, Michael Graff wrote: > 2. Question: {da terpa mi} means "Something terrifies me." {[zo'e] terpa > mi} seems to be used interchangebly - in contradiction to the quoted > explanation in the "Lojban Reference Grammer". And why two different > wordes for the same meaning? {da} is a variable in a logical quantification. {zo'e} marks a place left empty. If there's only one of them with no quantifier, it's not easy to see the difference, but if there are two, there's a clear difference. {zo'e remsmismani voda}: "There are four species of great ape." {de remsmismani voda}: "There is a great ape that belongs to four species at once." {de remsmismani vozo'e}: Grammatical but nonsensical. {voda se remsmismani zo'e}: "There are four species of great ape." {voda se remsmismani de}: "There are four species of great ape that have members." In a relative clause, {zo'e} may be required to mark a place empty, because the listener will assume, in the absence of {ce'u}, that {ce'u} fills one of the places. phma