From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Sep 05 16:49:12 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 05 Sep 2006 16:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1GKkfI-0000px-4B for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 05 Sep 2006 16:49:12 -0700 Received: from web56411.mail.re3.yahoo.com ([216.252.111.90]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1GKkfG-0000pp-HS for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 05 Sep 2006 16:49:11 -0700 Received: (qmail 48968 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Sep 2006 23:49:08 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=I4du16Loyspfg5SkeC8HL466FPcLV339Fj9nkTOAI0jJGY9+FuP0/0wXwQXnTa1DCxnAptF2L2zDrLsb0pehQC9uHoIWOOMnpb1fl1sfvxJ5h2FvsXrU/IjB92SSkQfjJCkl/MHwFsCRFZg+WvVyBM8v2ce2JY7Tm4+rkeVst2g= ; Message-ID: <20060905234908.48966.qmail@web56411.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Received: from [75.0.157.227] by web56411.mail.re3.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 05 Sep 2006 16:49:08 PDT Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 16:49:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Nathaniel Krause Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Stress. To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <925d17560609041354h45ca2813s4e6dcb7fbb4609e3@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-41163231-1157500148=:45419" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-archive-position: 3570 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: nathanielkrause@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --0-41163231-1157500148=:45419 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Given that a cmevla doesn't have a meaning which is defined by the language, I'm not sure what it means to say that two cmevla which are pronounced differently are exactly the same word. -sen Jorge Llamb�as wrote: On 9/4/06, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Monday 04 September 2006 09:03, Jorge Llamb�as wrote: > > cmevla can be stressed anywhere or nowhere, it makes no difference. > > It makes no difference to the lexing of the word, but can make a difference in > the meaning (though the same cmevla, with the same stress, can refer to > different things, e.g. {UAcintyn}). There seem to be two different opinions on this matter. For me, {UAcintyn} and {uaCINtyn} are the exact same cmevla, they represent two allowed pronunciations of the same word, much like {kla,ma} and {kl,a,ma} represent two allowed pronunciations of the same word, in free variation. The different spellings indicate a preference for one pronunciation, but pronouncing the word either way is perfectly valid. Others sometimes seem to think that stress in cmevla can make a semantic difference. Sometimes people seem to think that even syllabification in cmevla can make a semantic difference. > If no stress is written in a cmevla, it's > pronounced with a default stress, but some sound sequences can occur in > cmevla that can't occur in brivla: > Syllable contains "y" and another vowel: {uiliymsyn} > Two adjacent syllables contain "y": {stydmyfin} > Last syllable contains "y": {uacintyn} > How is the default stress determined in these cases? As far as I'm concerned, in whichever way you prefer, since for me stress doesn't make any difference in cmevla. For those who think stress does make a semantic difference, some rule would be required, so that those forms are not semantically ambiguous. mu'o mi'e xorxes __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-41163231-1157500148=:45419 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Given that a cmevla doesn't have a meaning which is defined by the language, I'm not sure what it means to say that two cmevla which are pronounced differently are exactly the same word.

-sen

Jorge Llamb�as <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
On 9/4/06, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> On Monday 04 September 2006 09:03, Jorge Llamb�as wrote:
> > cmevla can be stressed anywhere or nowhere, it makes no difference.
>
> It makes no difference to the lexing of the word, but can make a difference in
> the meaning (though the same cmevla, with the same stress, can refer to
> different things, e.g. {UAcintyn}).

There seem to be two different opinions on this matter.

For me, {UAcintyn} and {uaCINtyn} are the exact same cmevla, they represent
two allowed pronunciations of the same word, much like {kla,ma} and
{kl,a,ma} represent two allowed pronunciations of the same word, in free
variation. The different spellings indicate a preference for one pronunciation,
but pronouncing the word either way is perfectly valid.

Others sometimes seem to think that stress in cmevla can make
a semantic difference. Sometimes people seem to think that even
syllabification in cmevla can make a semantic difference.

> If no stress is written in a cmevla, it's
> pronounced with a default stress, but some sound sequences can occur in
> cmevla that can't occur in brivla:
> Syllable contains "y" and another vowel: {uiliymsyn}
> Two adjacent syllables contain "y": {stydmyfin}
> Last syllable contains "y": {uacintyn}
> How is the default stress determined in these cases?

As far as I'm concerned, in whichever way you prefer, since for me stress
doesn't make any difference in cmevla. For those who think stress does
make a semantic difference, some rule would be required, so that those
forms are not semantically ambiguous.

mu'o mi'e xorxes




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