From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Oct 16 01:18:08 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 16 Oct 2006 01:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GZNfc-0001H5-Ms for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 01:18:02 -0700 Received: from mailgw5.gedas.de ([139.1.44.13]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA1:24) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GZNf8-0001Fi-TI for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 01:17:55 -0700 Received: from mailgw5.gedas.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw5.gedas.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k9G8HNkS017282 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 10:17:23 +0200 Received: from GDDEBESAPP004.de.gedas-grp (gddebesapp004.de.gedas-grp [10.242.64.42]) by mailgw5.gedas.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k9G8HNcF017276 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 10:17:23 +0200 Received: from blnsem08.de.gedas-grp ([139.1.84.54]) by GDDEBESAPP004.de.gedas-grp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 16 Oct 2006 10:17:23 +0200 Received: by blnsem08.de.gedas-grp with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <4JSKJ25B>; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 10:17:22 +0200 Message-ID: From: "Newton, Philip" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: ' vs. x and t vs. d Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 10:17:19 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Oct 2006 08:17:23.0597 (UTC) FILETIME=[820CC3D0:01C6F0FB] X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 3641 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: Philip.Newton@gedas-onsite.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners > MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com wrote: > > In a message dated 10/14/2006 4:22:15 AM Central Standard Time, > > ecartis@digitalkingdom.org writes: > >> > >> It's like explaining difference between [d] and [t] to a > 40 year old > >> Chinese who never heard any language except his native. > >> > >> mi'e .ianis. > > > > There may be some similarity - in difficulty, perhaps - but > there is > > no parallel between the pairs of sounds. > > I think difficulty was what he was talking about. *nods* Specifically, the difficulty of hearing the difference between two sounds that are separate phonemes in another language but allophones of the same phoneme in your language. Or in less technical terms, to hear the difference between two sounds which are "the same sound" in your language. (That is, using one or the other cannot make a difference in meaning.) An English example might be to hear the difference between aspirated and unaspirated [p] -- if they're both voiceless, they may both sound like [p] to you, yet they're separate in some languages. Whereas in English, they're allophones (the "p" in "spin" is unaspirated for some speakers, while the "p" in "pin" is aspirated). Mu'o mi'e .filip.