From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Dec 02 13:19:12 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 02 Dec 2006 13:19:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GqcGO-0002gO-Bo for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sat, 02 Dec 2006 13:19:12 -0800 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.176]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GqcGI-0002gA-RR for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sat, 02 Dec 2006 13:19:12 -0800 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a29so2023643pyi for ; Sat, 02 Dec 2006 13:19:05 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:content-type:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:from:subject:date:to:x-mailer; b=A6iUkRV386vUOIGHg1sZ6d3233TBfskwHgQxuUxIOZU4yXTpHRmn9dkY4X7OA7SfbqSWOvnbcSTHNdulq9laKzt9giVeYoDt809wn3Zd05z28QZvpv5PHJttxpFDKHWKDCjVmicp0THME+e2P2Pb8NFaMTW02RfTBjLET1pwNEc= Received: by 10.35.94.7 with SMTP id w7mr11608351pyl.1165094343481; Sat, 02 Dec 2006 13:19:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.6? ( [24.107.121.88]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id c1sm19694776nzd.2006.12.02.13.19.02; Sat, 02 Dec 2006 13:19:02 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) In-Reply-To: <4571D160.6030000@mindspring.com> References: <4571D160.6030000@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7C12B446-67E9-460B-8047-B1EC4DAF28B7@gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis From: Evan Wilson Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Pronouncing "x" Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 15:18:59 -0600 To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 3766 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: evanwils@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Ronald (I hope you don't mind that I address you rather informally), I took a different approach on learning how to pronounce the Lojban "x". I happen to have studied the Persian (Farsi) alphabet, and it has the character "خ" or "khe" which seems to be similar if not exact to the Lojban "x". A sound recording of "خ" can be found here: http:// easypersian.com/W4/khe_4.mp3 (Reminds me a bit of Hebrew) Even if you do already have that confidently figured out, perhaps it will help in confirmation? -Termy On Dec 2, 2006, at 1:17 PM, Ronald Guida wrote: > I am learning to pronounce Lojban "x", which is not an English > sound. I think I have figured it out, so I want to share how I > figured it out in the hope of helping others. > > First, I took a crash course in phonetics, courtesy of Wikipedia. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Place_of_articulation > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manner_of_articulation > > Second, I pronounced English "ch" and "sh", as in: > > English: "ch ch ch ch-shhhh" > IPA: "tʃ tʃ tʃ tʃʃʃʃʃʃʃ" > X-SAMPA: "tS tS tS tSSSSSSS" > Lojban: "tc tc tc tcccccc" > > and noted the difference between a stop and a fricative. I can > pronounce "ch" followed immediately by a long "sh" because "sh" is > a fricative that uses the same place of articulation as the end* of > ch. [*Note: I perceive "ch" as a single sound, even though the IPA > represents it as two sounds.] > > Third, I attempted to do this with "k" and "X". I can pronounce a > train of "k"s and then attempt to make them run together. I can > also pronounce a ejective "k" by taking a deep breath and forcing > excessive air out with my "k" sound. If I hold the shape of my > mouth immediately after the release that creates the "k" sound, > then the extra air will produce turbulence and the resulting sound > is somewhat like "X". The point of these two exercises is to > become aware of the shape of my mouth during the "release" phase of > producing "k" and to get an idea of that "X" probably sounds like. > By holding this shape, I can then pronounce "k k k kXXXXXX". I can > also note that "kXXXXX" sounds somewhat like the sound of a crash > cymbal. > > Fourth, using a flashlight and a mirror, I can open my mouth wide > and look inside to see my soft pallet and my uvula. If I pronounce > "k" with my mouth wide open, I can see the back of my tongue lift > up, block the soft pallet for a moment, and then release, producing > the "k" sound (unvoiced velar stop) upon release. I can also feel > the contact between my soft pallet and the back of my tongue. If I > pronounce "kXXXXX", I can see and feel the same movements as K, > followed by a sound with the back of my tongue lifted up, but not > all the way up. I also attempted to pronounce "XXXXXX" (unvoiced > velar fricative) without the initial "k". At this point, I am > fairly confident that I know what "X" sounds like and that I am > pronouncing it correctly. > > Fifth, I am trying to pronounce an "X" preceded and/or followed by > a vowel. The two problems I am having are (1) sometimes I am > pronouncing a "k" or a pause (a silent "k") right before the "X", > and (2) sometimes I am pronouncing an "h" instead of an "X". These > are coordination problems that can only be eliminated through > practice. > > -- Ron > > > >