From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Jan 24 05:10:14 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 05:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H9htF-0000S5-TW for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 05:10:14 -0800 Received: from smtp.mail.umich.edu ([141.211.14.81] helo=hackers.mr.itd.umich.edu) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H9htA-0000Qv-1v for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 05:10:13 -0800 Received: FROM [141.213.221.81] (bursley-221-81.reshall.umich.edu [141.213.221.81]) BY hackers.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 45B75A68.62417.5478 ; 24 Jan 2007 08:08:56 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <20070124125004.GA4537@dfmwxp.starman.ee> References: <1F820080-F970-4A37-BC88-3AE472E14A41@mindspring.com> <4F9E8CD4-2D69-4D5E-813D-A3C590A85A5D@umich.edu> <20070124122944.GA4320@dfmwxp.starman.ee> <20070124125004.GA4537@dfmwxp.starman.ee> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2-210894283 Message-Id: From: Alex Martini Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: POM: the Princess puts her foot down Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:08:58 -0500 To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Score-Int: -25 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 3945 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: alexjm@umich.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --Apple-Mail-2-210894283 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Jan 24, 2007, at 7:50 AM, Elmo Todurov wrote: > On 07:41 Wed 24 Jan , Alex Martini wrote: >> >> On Jan 24, 2007, at 7:29 AM, Elmo Todurov wrote: >> >>> On 17:06 Tue 23 Jan , Alex Martini wrote: >>>> Is this the right stressing of {noltruti'u}? I expected {nol-TRU- >>>> ti'u} as three Lojban syllables, since I was under the impression >>>> that .y'y doesn't make a syllable break. >>> noltruTI'u is the correct pronounciation. y isn't counted as a >>> vowel for >>> syllable-making purposes (like the word, banlydau (ignore the >>> meaning, >>> it's just for illustration) is pronounced BANlydau). >>> >>> Elmo >> If I count .y'y as a syllable break, I get {nol-tru-TI-hu} as the >> second to last, but if I don't I get {nol-TRU-tihu} as second to last >> using h for .y'y since it's easier to see as syllable initial. Which >> seems to be the opposite of what you're saying. >> {ti'u} counts, as far as I know, all as one syllable since y'y is not >> a syllable break. If it were, then cmavo like {ba'o} would be two >> syllables which isn't allowed. > Who says ' isn't a valid syllable breaking letter? I don't deny that I > might be wrong, but I was under the impression it _is_ allowed and > _is_ a > 2-syllable word. Could you please give me reference to the text that > says a single cmavo must be a single syllable, and that ' can't > start a > syllable? CLL 3.2 > The apostrophe represents a phoneme similar to a short, breathy > English ``h'', (IPA [h]). The letter ``h'' is not used to represent > this sound for two reasons: primarily in order to simplify > explanations of the morphology, but also because the sound is very > common, and the apostrophe is a visually lightweight representation > of it. The apostrophe sound is a consonant in nature, but is not > treated as either a consonant or a vowel for purposes of Lojban > morphology (word-formation), which is explained in Chapter 4. In > addition, the apostrophe visually parallels the comma and the > period, which are also used (in different ways) to separate syllables. CLL 4.4 > Standard cmavo occur in four forms defined by their word structure. > Here are some examples of the various forms: > V-form .a .e .i .o .u > CV-form ba ce di fo gu > VV-form .au .ei .ia .o'u .u'e > CVV-form ki'a pei mi'o coi cu'u > > A simple cmavo thus has the property of having only one or two > vowels, or of having a single consonant followed by one or two > vowels. Words consisting of three or more vowels in a row, or a > single consonant followed by three or more vowels, are also of > cmavo form, but are reserved for experimental use: a few examples > are ``ku'a'e'', ``sau'e'', and ``bai'ai''. All CVV cmavo beginning > with the letter ``x'' are also reserved for experimental use. In > general, though, the form of a cmavo tells you little or nothing > about its grammatical use. In this context, since they don't give a CVCV or CVhV form, y'y is not considered at all, as if it were a quality attached between the vowels and not a letter. Which is what 4.2 also says. My understanding is that, for word formation and breaking into syllables, y'y doesn't count at all. Then, when you actually pronounce the word (and already placed the stress before considering y'y again) you add it back in, and make a syllable break. I don't have any reference that y'y can't start a syllable though. It's not in any of the "syllable initial consonant" lists. But I think that's a moot point, since y'y doesn't exist yet (for all practical purposes) when you are breaking up a syllable. So y'y + vowel would just look like a bare vowel at that point. mu'o mi'e .aleks. --Apple-Mail-2-210894283 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Jan 24, 2007, at = 7:50 AM, Elmo Todurov wrote:

On = 07:41 Wed 24 Jan =A0 =A0 , Alex Martini wrote:

On Jan 24, 2007, at 7:29 AM, Elmo = Todurov wrote:

On = 17:06 Tue 23 Jan =A0 =A0 , Alex Martini wrote:
Is this the right stressing of {noltruti'u}? I = expected {nol-TRU-
ti'u} as three Lojban syllables, since I = was under the impression
that .y'y doesn't make a syllable = break.
noltruTI'u is the correct pronounciation. = y isn't counted as a =A0
vowel for
syllable-making = purposes (like the word, banlydau (ignore the meaning,
it's = just for illustration) is pronounced = BANlydau).

Elmo
If I = count .y'y as a syllable break, I get {nol-tru-TI-hu} as the = =A0
second to last, but if I don't I get {nol-TRU-tihu} as = second to last =A0
using h for .y'y since it's easier to see = as syllable initial. Which =A0
seems to be the opposite of = what you're saying.
{ti'u} counts, as far as I know, all as = one syllable since y'y is not =A0
a syllable break. If it = were, then cmavo like {ba'o} would be two =A0
syllables which = isn't allowed.
Who says ' isn't a valid syllable = breaking letter? I don't deny that I
might be wrong, but I was = under the impression it _is_ allowed and _is_ a
2-syllable = word. Could you please give me reference to the text that
says = a single cmavo must be a single syllable, and that ' can't start = a
syllable?

CLL = 3.2
The apostrophe represents a phoneme similar = to a short, breathy English ``h'', (IPA [h]). The letter ``h'' is not = used to represent this sound for two reasons: primarily in order to = simplify explanations of the morphology, but also because the sound is = very common, and the apostrophe is a visually lightweight representation = of it. The apostrophe sound is a consonant in nature, but is not = treated as either a consonant or a vowel for purposes of Lojban = morphology (word-formation), which is explained in Chapter 4. In = addition, the apostrophe visually parallels the comma and the period, = which are also used (in different ways) to separate = syllables.

CLL = 4.4
Standard cmavo occur in = four forms defined by their word structure. Here are some examples of = the various forms:
=A0 =A0V-form=A0 =A0 =A0 .a=A0 .e=A0 .i=A0 = .o=A0 .u
=A0 =A0 CV-form =A0 =A0 ba=A0 ce=A0 di=A0 fo=A0 = gu
=A0 =A0 VV-form =A0 =A0 .au .ei .ia .o'u=A0 =A0 = .u'e
=A0 =A0 CVV-form=A0 =A0 ki'a=A0 =A0 pei mi'o=A0 =A0 coi = cu'u

A simple cmavo thus has the property of = having only one or two vowels, or of having a single consonant followed = by one or two vowels. Words consisting of three or more vowels in a = row, or a single consonant followed by three or more vowels, are also of = cmavo form, but are reserved for experimental use: a few examples are = ``ku'a'e'', ``sau'e'', and ``bai'ai''. All CVV cmavo beginning with the = letter ``x'' are also reserved for experimental use. In general, though, = the form of a cmavo tells you little or nothing about its grammatical = use.

In this context, since they = don't give a CVCV or CVhV form, y'y is not considered at all, as if it = were a quality attached between the vowels and not a letter. Which is = what 4.2 also says.

My understanding is that, = for word formation and breaking into syllables, y'y doesn't count at = all. Then, when you actually pronounce the word (and already placed the = stress before considering y'y again) you add it back in, and make a = syllable break.

I don't have any reference = that y'y can't start a syllable though. It's not in any of the "syllable = initial consonant" lists. But I think that's a moot point, since y'y = doesn't exist yet (for all practical purposes) when you are breaking up = a syllable. So y'y + vowel would just look like a bare vowel at that = point.

mu'o = mi'e .aleks.
= --Apple-Mail-2-210894283--