From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Jan 24 05:20:33 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 05:20:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H9i3E-0000i0-Ut for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 05:20:33 -0800 Received: from mclmx.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.10]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H9i35-0000hl-8S for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 05:20:32 -0800 Received: from 0015-its-ieg02.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.21] [149.8.64.21]) by mclmx.mail.saic.com for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:20:13 -0500 Received: from 0015-ITS-EXBH01.us.saic.com ([10.43.229.18]) by 0015-its-ieg02.mail.saic.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.5.66) with SMTP id M2007012408201315768 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:20:13 -0500 Received: from 0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com ([10.75.0.188]) by 0015-ITS-EXBH01.us.saic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:20:11 -0500 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C73FBA.5FF92374" Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: POM: the Princess puts her foot down Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:20:10 -0500 Message-Id: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4021D41D9@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lojban-beginners] Re: POM: the Princess puts her foot down Thread-Index: Acc/uU44tfEnEVikRfWVYH5GNPhh4gAAE+1g From: "Turniansky, Michael" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jan 2007 13:20:11.0497 (UTC) FILETIME=[60454D90:01C73FBA] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 3946 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: MICHAEL.A.TURNIANSKY@saic.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C73FBA.5FF92374 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please re-read what you just posted. The apostrophe itself does not count as a vowel or consonant, but each of the two vowels DO make a syllable, and note the sentence just past the the one you highlighted: In addition, the apostrophe visually parallels the comma and the period, which are *also* used (in different ways) to separate syllables. (emphasis added to show you that the apostrophe DOES break up syllables) (Also note the reference to chapter four, which I quoted in my first response, which explicitly shows e'o as a 2 syllable cmavo) Cmavo are V, CV, CVV or CV'V, but it doesn't say anywhere that CV'V cmavo are single syllables. =20 =20 --Mike T. =20 ________________________________ From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of Alex Martini Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:09 AM To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: POM: the Princess puts her foot down =20 On Jan 24, 2007, at 7:50 AM, Elmo Todurov wrote: On 07:41 Wed 24 Jan , Alex Martini wrote: =20 On Jan 24, 2007, at 7:29 AM, Elmo Todurov wrote: =20 On 17:06 Tue 23 Jan , Alex Martini wrote: Is this the right stressing of {noltruti'u}? I expected {nol-TRU- ti'u} as three Lojban syllables, since I was under the impression that .y'y doesn't make a syllable break. noltruTI'u is the correct pronounciation. y isn't counted as a =20 vowel for syllable-making purposes (like the word, banlydau (ignore the meaning, it's just for illustration) is pronounced BANlydau). =20 Elmo If I count .y'y as a syllable break, I get {nol-tru-TI-hu} as the =20 second to last, but if I don't I get {nol-TRU-tihu} as second to last =20 using h for .y'y since it's easier to see as syllable initial. Which =20 seems to be the opposite of what you're saying. {ti'u} counts, as far as I know, all as one syllable since y'y is not =20 a syllable break. If it were, then cmavo like {ba'o} would be two =20 syllables which isn't allowed. Who says ' isn't a valid syllable breaking letter? I don't deny that I might be wrong, but I was under the impression it _is_ allowed and _is_ a 2-syllable word. Could you please give me reference to the text that says a single cmavo must be a single syllable, and that ' can't start a syllable? =20 CLL 3.2 The apostrophe represents a phoneme similar to a short, breathy English ``h'', (IPA [h]). The letter ``h'' is not used to represent this sound for two reasons: primarily in order to simplify explanations of the morphology, but also because the sound is very common, and the apostrophe is a visually lightweight representation of it. The apostrophe sound is a consonant in nature, but is not treated as either a consonant or a vowel for purposes of Lojban morphology (word-formation), which is explained in Chapter 4. In addition, the apostrophe visually parallels the comma and the period, which are also used (in different ways) to separate syllables. =20 CLL 4.4 Standard cmavo occur in four forms defined by their word structure. Here are some examples of the various forms: V-form .a .e .i .o .u CV-form ba ce di fo gu VV-form .au .ei .ia .o'u .u'e CVV-form ki'a pei mi'o coi cu'u =20 A simple cmavo thus has the property of having only one or two vowels, or of having a single consonant followed by one or two vowels. Words consisting of three or more vowels in a row, or a single consonant followed by three or more vowels, are also of cmavo form, but are reserved for experimental use: a few examples are ``ku'a'e'', ``sau'e'', and ``bai'ai''. All CVV cmavo beginning with the letter ``x'' are also reserved for experimental use. In general, though, the form of a cmavo tells you little or nothing about its grammatical use. =20 In this context, since they don't give a CVCV or CVhV form, y'y is not considered at all, as if it were a quality attached between the vowels and not a letter. Which is what 4.2 also says. =20 My understanding is that, for word formation and breaking into syllables, y'y doesn't count at all. Then, when you actually pronounce the word (and already placed the stress before considering y'y again) you add it back in, and make a syllable break. =20 I don't have any reference that y'y can't start a syllable though. It's not in any of the "syllable initial consonant" lists. But I think that's a moot point, since y'y doesn't exist yet (for all practical purposes) when you are breaking up a syllable. So y'y + vowel would just look like a bare vowel at that point. =20 mu'o mi'e .aleks. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C73FBA.5FF92374 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

  Please re-read what you just = posted.  The apostrophe itself does not count as a vowel or consonant, but each = of the two vowels DO make a syllable, and note the sentence just past the the = one you highlighted:  In = addition, the apostrophe visually parallels the comma and the period, which are = *also* used (in different ways) to = separate syllables. (emphasis added to show you that the apostrophe DOES break up syllables)  (Also note the reference to chapter four, which I = quoted in my first response, which explicitly shows e’o as a 2 syllable = cmavo)  Cmavo are V, CV, CVV or CV’V, but it doesn’t say anywhere that = CV’V cmavo are single syllables.

 

 

       &nbs= p;            = ;      --Mike T.

 

From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org = [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of Alex Martini
Sent: Wednesday, January = 24, 2007 8:09 AM
To: = lojban-beginners@lojban.org
Subject: = [lojban-beginners] Re: POM: the Princess puts her foot down

 

On Jan 24, 2007, at 7:50 AM, Elmo Todurov = wrote:



On 07:41 Wed 24 Jan     , Alex Martini = wrote:

 

On Jan 24, 2007, at 7:29 AM, Elmo Todurov = wrote:

 

On 17:06 Tue 23 Jan     , Alex Martini = wrote:

Is this the right stressing of {noltruti'u}? I expected = {nol-TRU-

ti'u} as three Lojban syllables, since I was under the = impression

that .y'y doesn't make a syllable = break.

noltruTI'u is the correct pronounciation. y isn't counted as a =  

vowel for

syllable-making purposes (like the word, banlydau (ignore the = meaning,

it's just for illustration) is pronounced = BANlydau).

 

Elmo

If I count .y'y as a syllable break, I get {nol-tru-TI-hu} as = the  

second to last, but if I don't I get {nol-TRU-tihu} as second to = last  

using h for .y'y since it's easier to see as syllable initial. = Which  

seems to be the opposite of what you're = saying.

{ti'u} counts, as far as I know, all as one syllable since y'y = is not  

a syllable break. If it were, then cmavo like {ba'o} would be = two  

syllables which isn't allowed.

Who says ' isn't a valid syllable breaking letter? I don't deny = that I

might be wrong, but I was under the impression it _is_ allowed = and _is_ a

2-syllable word. Could you please give me reference to the text = that

says a single cmavo must be a single syllable, and that ' can't = start a

syllable?

 

CLL 3.2

The apostrophe = represents a phoneme similar to a short, breathy English ``h'', (IPA [h]). The = letter ``h'' is not used to represent this sound for two reasons: primarily in = order to simplify explanations of the morphology, but also because the sound = is very common, and the apostrophe is a visually lightweight representation of = it. The apostrophe sound is a consonant in nature, but is not treated as either a consonant or a vowel for purposes of = Lojban morphology (word-formation), which is explained in Chapter 4. = In addition, the apostrophe visually parallels the comma and the period, = which are also used (in different ways) to separate = syllables.

 

CLL 4.4

Standard cmavo occur in four forms defined by their word = structure. Here are some examples of the various = forms:

   V-form      .a  .e  = .i  .o  .u

    CV-form     ba  ce  di  = fo  gu

    VV-form     .au .ei .ia .o'u  =   .u'e

    CVV-form    ki'a    pei mi'o    coi = cu'u

 

A simple cmavo thus has the property of having only one or two vowels, or of = having a single consonant followed by one or two vowels. Words consisting of three or more vowels in a row, or a single consonant = followed by three or more vowels, are also of cmavo form, but are reserved for = experimental use: a few examples are ``ku'a'e'', ``sau'e'', and ``bai'ai''. All CVV = cmavo beginning with the letter ``x'' are also reserved for experimental use. = In general, though, the form of a cmavo tells you little or nothing about = its grammatical use.

 

In this context, since they don't give a CVCV or CVhV form, y'y = is not considered at all, as if it were a quality attached between the vowels = and not a letter. Which is what 4.2 also says.

 

My understanding is that, for word formation and breaking into syllables, y'y doesn't count at all. Then, when you actually pronounce = the word (and already placed the stress before considering y'y again) you add it = back in, and make a syllable break.

 

I don't have any reference that y'y can't start a syllable = though. It's not in any of the "syllable initial consonant" lists. But I = think that's a moot point, since y'y doesn't exist yet (for all practical = purposes) when you are breaking up a syllable. So y'y + vowel would just look like = a bare vowel at that point.

 

mu'o mi'e .aleks.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C73FBA.5FF92374--