From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Jan 24 08:26:52 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:26:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H9kxX-0005vy-Vt for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:26:52 -0800 Received: from express.cec.wustl.edu ([128.252.21.16]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H9kxR-0005vk-43 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:26:51 -0800 Received: from hive.cec.wustl.edu (hive.cec.wustl.edu [128.252.21.14]) by express.cec.wustl.edu (8.13.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id l0OGQbeD021908 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:26:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from hive.cec.wustl.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by hive.cec.wustl.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l0OGOWIk021595; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:24:32 -0600 Received: from localhost (adam@localhost) by hive.cec.wustl.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id l0OGOVZU021592; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:24:32 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: hive.cec.wustl.edu: adam owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:24:31 -0600 (CST) From: "Adam D. Lopresto" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: POM: the Princess puts her foot down In-Reply-To: <328E7862-66E6-4D8D-BB0E-57B7BA7E106E@umich.edu> Message-ID: References: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4021D41DA@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> <328E7862-66E6-4D8D-BB0E-57B7BA7E106E@umich.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Score-Int: -25 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 3949 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: adam@pubcrawler.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Wed, 24 Jan 2007, Alex Martini wrote: > I think part of the issue is that Lojban actually has 2 kinds of syllables, or > two different ways to break a word into syllables. Not really. Well, if you count {.y bu} (y), then yes, but .y'y. isn't special at all in that way. > As far as making words is concerned, it seems that y'y doesn't "count" as a > consonant or a vowel. It is neither a consonant or a vowel, but I think you're conflating two things together by saying it doesn't "count". There's more in the world than just consonants and vowels. What about, for instance, a space (in Lojban, but also in English). Is it a consonant or a vowel? Of course not, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and doesn't matter a great deal. > This lets us have a lot more cmavo than we would otherwise have. But when > pronouncing Lojban, y'y has to break a syllable. Which means that it really is breaking a syllable, in just the way that denpa bu (.) and slaka bu (,) do. > My confusion is around stress -- do you assign stress based on the > morphological syllables or based on the phonemic syllables? There is only one kind of syllable. The fact that .y'y. is neither a consonant nor a vowel doesn't mean it isn't a real character, or produce real syllables. So yes, those syllables are very much real, and are definitely counted towards stress. The only ones that aren't are .y bu (y) syllables. > Or am I still thinking about y'y from the wrong angle? -- Adam Lopresto http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/ I DON'T CARE WHAT IT SAYS, said the tall biker in the helmet, I NEVER LAID A FINGER ON HIM. -- Death, on Elvis (Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens)