From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Jan 24 10:52:13 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:52:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H9nEC-0000GO-Kb for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:52:13 -0800 Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.243]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H9nE7-0000GH-Cw for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:52:12 -0800 Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b8so106263ana for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:52:05 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=WqlnFoi3mc32PS85x7x5aoI/Aw17gZixZpYem3+cgeautZYBgB4nHCGBD5+1tSzykFa07amqDcfXoDbGtrny6pRdDQUGOuoqq2ib343BoiHZci5D7ThmYdE6JTZUMUIXkBDxLn7d4Hx46UyjvtVZXTE3efNktT6ElNdnhoOjXsc= Received: by 10.49.29.2 with SMTP id g2mr3292637nfj.1169664724093; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:52:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.49.9.8 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:52:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560701241052v455cfc75s130e64dabe5c5aff@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:52:03 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: POM: the Princess puts her foot down In-Reply-To: <1F820080-F970-4A37-BC88-3AE472E14A41@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1F820080-F970-4A37-BC88-3AE472E14A41@mindspring.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Score-Int: -25 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 3954 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 1/23/07, Cortesi wrote: > > piro La Barsum se ckape .ije. La Eliym ba terskicu > > I would like to say Helium MUST be told -- but I don't see how to tersely > say that. The line is already too long for emphatic speech or for the > actor's comfort. I use {jungau}, "x1 makes x2 know x3", for "tell". But in this case, since you are not really saying who it is that must tell Helium, you could just say: {.ei la .eliym djuno}, "Helium ought to know". > I'm still confused about the syntactic roles of selma'o PU. It appears from > some examples in the ref.gram. that [bridi] ca [abstraction] is how to say > this-while-that, so "fly straight while we can" is just {sirji vofli ca > [lo?] li'i ma'a kakne}. True? More or less, yes. A simple bridi consists of a selbri and any number of terms: [term] [term] ... [selbri] [term] [term] ... A term can be a simple sumti, like {mi}, {ko'a}, {le mlatu}, {la djan}, {lo nu mi klama le zarci}, etc. or a _tagged_ sumti, like {fa mi}, {ki'u ko'a}, {ca lo nu mi klama le zarci}, etc. There are many types of tags, the members of PU are among them. Now, for "while" I would use {ca'o} rather than {ca}. {ca} is better for "when". It indicates that the time of the main selbri event is the same as the time of the tagged sumti. It is not concerned with duration. {ca'o} is better for "while". It indicates that the main selbri event happens for as long as the tagged sumti (and perhaps longer). {ze'a} is better for "for". It indicates the complete duration of the main selbri event. {co'i} is better for (the time sense of) "in". It indicates that the main selbri event happens within the time of the tagged sumti (i.e. the converse of {ca'o}). > Also confused about NU such as li'i -- when is it needful to have a LE > before a NU? NU converts a full bridi into a selbri. LE converts a selbri into a sumti. When you need to convert a full bridi into a sumti, you use NU to convert the bridi into a selbri and then LE to convert it into a sumti. mu'o mi'e xorxes