From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Feb 05 05:49:09 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 05 Feb 2007 05:49:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HE4DU-0006AG-MY for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 05 Feb 2007 05:49:09 -0800 Received: from mclmx.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.10]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HE4DO-0006A7-Op for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 05 Feb 2007 05:49:08 -0800 Received: from 0015-its-ieg02.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.21] [149.8.64.21]) by mclmx.mail.saic.com for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 08:48:26 -0500 Received: from 0015-its-exbh02.us.saic.com ([10.43.229.22]) by 0015-its-ieg02.mail.saic.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.5.66) with SMTP id M2007020508482605245 for ; Mon, 05 Feb 2007 08:48:26 -0500 Received: from 0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com ([10.75.0.188]) by 0015-its-exbh02.us.saic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 5 Feb 2007 08:48:26 -0500 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: xatra poi na se pagbu lo preti Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 08:48:26 -0500 Message-Id: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7B6C@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> In-Reply-To: <23dc8c770702050529x61c64c47j2329c8484f9433b8@mail.gmail.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lojban-beginners] Re: xatra poi na se pagbu lo preti Thread-Index: AcdJKhsDDF1cwPm+T5i9aV03ls+DHgAAZ/9g From: "Turniansky, Michael" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Feb 2007 13:48:26.0805 (UTC) FILETIME=[4FB5C650:01C7492C] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 4001 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: MICHAEL.A.TURNIANSKY@saic.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners I guess (and I'm not really an expert) there's nothing really wrong with saying mi klama fi vo'e ledo zdani (="I went to your house and back") without specifying my start and endpoints. My concern was merely with the referent of vo'e, which, now that I read the jbovlaste definition, I seem to have been wrong about anyhow. It does seem to refer to the outermost bridi. --gejyspa -----Original Message----- From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of Karl Naylor Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 8:30 AM To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: xatra poi na se pagbu lo preti Yeah, I wondered whether that would work -- I wanted to indicate 'the thing which would go in the x2 place of the bridi' (ignoring for a moment the fact that I almost certainly may not access that bridi at all using vo'e, since it's neither the current nor the outermost bridi)... that is, 'the product of the act of creation I just mentioned' even though I didn't name or describe that product by filling the x2 place. Elided places become "zo'e", "something unspecified", so it's not like they don't exist. I just didn't tell you anything about that place. I considered options such as filling the x2 of finti with "da goi ko'a", but I thought, if "vo'e" actually works, that's much more elegant. So, any experts want to comment? Can "vo'a" and "le se go'i" and suchlike refer to places that were never specified? On 05/02/07, Turniansky, Michael wrote: > (*scratches head*) but your "finti" bridi (finti bau la lojban) didn't > have an x2 place specified. > --gejyspa > > > -----Original Message----- > From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org > [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of Karl Naylor > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 8:04 AM > To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org > Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: xatra poi na se pagbu lo preti > > > > ni'o xu lo xatra poi na se pagbu lo preti cu badri .i da'i mi nelci > > > lenu finti bau la lojban. fi lenu le jbocertu [cu]te pinka vo'e .i > > ku'i > > > mi na djuno ledu'u xu kau le se go'i cu se curmi > > > xu la'e zo vo'e ca'a du zo vo'e to tu'a le bridi be fa lu le jbocertu > > cu te pinka vo'e li'u toi .enai lu lenu finti bau la lojban li'u > > na.e .i lonu finti lo jufra fi la lojban. poi se pagbu su'o so'o lo > bridi cu ca'o nandu mi .i ji'a mi jinvi ledu'u le smuni lo cmavo be > le selma'o be vo'a cu na'e veltu'i to la'anaisai le mi pu smuni cu > drani toi > > (I had meant for vo'e to refer to the x2 place of finti; it's still > difficult for me to build nested bridi without losing my place. Also, > I believe the referents of VO'A cmavo are not yet agreed upon (eg. > whether they refer to places of the current bridi or the outermost > one), although my use of vo'e to refer to the immediately containing > bridi is almost certainly incorrect) > > > > > >