From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Feb 05 15:40:35 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 05 Feb 2007 15:40:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HEDRq-0007Lt-Ac for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 05 Feb 2007 15:40:34 -0800 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.177]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HEDRm-0007Lk-72 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 05 Feb 2007 15:40:34 -0800 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a29so882844pyi for ; Mon, 05 Feb 2007 15:40:27 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=kgQEZigQppRFd6GdRV6b6crfB4bEDbojxOkcGlgDBqXX1YGE+TRxlB8RJN2zSqId2xf0kiQQKVYxP+pfB+AVhwSrRg/kX+RJYn4EiNzkKA4766hz9HcJpEQf0XqngwLdw/BLn8H8SsS/F2eO9DKAxhsTEdGquZgwExCvm/p3IaA= Received: by 10.35.106.15 with SMTP id i15mr14827414pym.1170718827325; Mon, 05 Feb 2007 15:40:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.35.62.11 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 15:40:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <12d58c160702051540m4554600ev3cd1441e2554eb36@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 18:40:27 -0500 From: "komfo,amonan" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: xatra poi na se pagbu lo preti In-Reply-To: <23dc8c770702050529x61c64c47j2329c8484f9433b8@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_50770_19926620.1170718827209" References: <23dc8c770702050504w16df5c0bs86c8ee566da472f5@mail.gmail.com> <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7B6A@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> <23dc8c770702050529x61c64c47j2329c8484f9433b8@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 032502720a17fddb X-Spam-Score: -2.2 X-Spam-Score-Int: -21 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 4003 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: komfoamonan@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_50770_19926620.1170718827209 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/5/07, Karl Naylor wrote: > > Yeah, I wondered whether that would work -- I wanted to indicate 'the > thing which would go in the x2 place of the bridi' (ignoring for a > moment the fact that I almost certainly may not access that bridi at > all using vo'e, since it's neither the current nor the outermost > bridi)... that is, 'the product of the act of creation I just > mentioned' even though I didn't name or describe that product by > filling the x2 place. Elided places become "zo'e", "something > unspecified", so it's not like they don't exist. I just didn't tell > you anything about that place. > > I considered options such as filling the x2 of finti with "da goi > ko'a", but I thought, if "vo'e" actually works, that's much more > elegant. So, any experts want to comment? Can "vo'a" and "le se > go'i" and suchlike refer to places that were never specified? 1. I think that indeed you can use anaphora like {vo'a} and {le se go'i} to refer to unspecified places for exactly the reason you posited, that is, that {zo'e} is understood for those places. 2. While KOhA4 ({vo'a} et al.) indeed refer to the main bridi, your other idea is sound, although you don't really need the {goi ko'a}. Hence your original sentence: * {.i da'i mi nelci lenu finti bau la lojban. fi lenu le jbocertu [cu]te pinka vo'e} could be recast as: {.i da'i mi nelci lenu finti da bau la lojban. fi lenu le jbocertu cu te pinka da} 3. There's a little used member of GOhA, {no'a}, which refers to the next outer bridi. So you could go with: {.i da'i mi nelci lenu finti bau la lojban. fi lenu le jbocertu cu te pinka le se no'a} This approach troubles me a bit, but it has the advantage of highlighting the full power of GOhA, as yet unwielded by the Lojban community. mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan ------=_Part_50770_19926620.1170718827209 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/5/07, Karl Naylor <karl.org@gmail.com> wrote:
Yeah, I wondered whether that would work -- I wanted to indicate 'the
thing which would go in the x2 place of the bridi' (ignoring for a
moment the fact that I almost certainly may not access that bridi at
all using vo'e, since it's neither the current nor the outermost
bridi)... that is, 'the product of the act of creation I just
mentioned' even though I didn't name or describe that product by
filling the x2 place.  Elided places become "zo'e", "something
unspecified", so it's not like they don't exist.  I just didn't tell
you anything about that place.

I considered options such as filling the x2 of finti with "da goi
ko'a", but I thought, if "vo'e" actually works, that's much more
elegant.  So, any experts want to comment?  Can "vo'a" and "le se
go'i" and suchlike refer to places that were never specified?

1. I think that indeed you can use anaphora like {vo'a} and {le se go'i} to refer to unspecified places for exactly the reason you posited, that is, that {zo'e} is understood for those places.

2. While KOhA4 ({vo'a} et al.) indeed refer to the main bridi, your other idea is sound, although you don't really need the {goi ko'a}. Hence your original sentence:
* {.i da'i mi nelci lenu finti bau la lojban. fi lenu le jbocertu [cu]te pinka vo'e}
could be recast as:
{.i da'i mi nelci lenu finti da bau la lojban. fi lenu le jbocertu cu te pinka da}

3. There's a little used member of GOhA, {no'a}, which refers to the next outer bridi. So you could go with:
{.i da'i mi nelci lenu finti bau la lojban. fi lenu le jbocertu cu te pinka le se no'a}
This approach troubles me a bit, but it has the advantage of highlighting the full power of GOhA, as yet unwielded by the Lojban community.

mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan

 


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