From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Mar 15 10:08:05 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HRtQq-00071W-JH for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:08:05 -0700 Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.241]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HRtQW-00070K-VZ for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:08:03 -0700 Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b8so225444ana for ; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:07:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=RqUWdf2//z68U4YDmcJ0LmURk+DqOz6DgaePxYAo3rMRiouOOsorXPU6B51FZNsWOrtiPp/TAZ/4yOWL5Ul3RX6027Miu6RZO5kRvCbzmPnz7mWdEr0eLv5Dx2aioTkr5hir3YySx0gh313tBj2GAxrTP4A3TKL7sEq+xyjfx1I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=faWIc21IATn0+sWJs4rfWniFyMddbMFrGKtn0t18NNUQFJ1v+liweJMe/Dq4NJsG+T2QpNCDg+cpIBgTif9zObribzunevDN5yYA4czzfQFI+tmDh3KgHg4iQB0q64/X8PWQIiWPeE3rZB1bIAXGieRidKThu81K0scT1btREpY= Received: by 10.100.112.19 with SMTP id k19mr593039anc.1173978450088; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.42.16 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560703151007v1f9cf43el82595dcfd93d1f36@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:07:29 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: spofu pemci In-Reply-To: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7C1F@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560703150812g5dbf5055k2a4b6a42112c1283@mail.gmail.com> <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7C1F@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 4139 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 3/15/07, Turniansky, Michael wrote: > > "LE broda cu brode GI'A brodi vau LE brodo" => "LE broda > cu brode LE brodo .i JA LE broda cu brodi LE brood" (do I have THAT > right, at least??) I would say yes, but I'm almost sure I could find people who disagree. Let's consider a concrete example: 1a) lo cinfo cu nakni gi'e femti 1b) Lions are male and female. 2a) lo cinfo cu nakni .ije lo cinfo cu femti 2b) Lions are male and lions are female. For me, (1a) and (2a) say the same thing (and the English (1b) and (2b) also say that same thing). What they say is relatively vague, at least if compared with the more precise quantified forms: 3a) ro cinfo cu nakni gi'e femti 3b) All lions are male and female. 4a) ro cinfo cu nakni .ije ro cinfo cu femti 4b) All lions are male and all lions are female. 5a) su'o cinfo cu nakni gi'e femti 5b) Some lions are male and female. 6a) su'o cinfo cu nakni .ije su'o cinfo cu femti 6b) Some lions are male and some lions are female. Notice that (3) and (4) happen to mean the same thing (because the quantifier {ro} and the connective {gi'e} can change their relative scope without changing meaning), but (5) and (6) mean very different things (because {ro} and {gi'a} cannot change their relative scope without a change of meaning). (3)=(4), and (5) are clearly false. (6) is clearly true. (1) and (2) are more vague, but I would say they are true. If someone says (1) or (2) you may want to ask for more precision, just in case. Some people think that Lojban cannot tolerate this kind of vagueness, so they will either not agree with me that (1a) and (1b) mean the same thing, or they will not agree that they can be true. mu'o mi'e xorxes