From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Mar 19 07:59:16 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HTJKM-0005Eg-SS for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:59:15 -0700 Received: from mclmx.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.10]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HTJK6-0005EP-Ps for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 07:59:14 -0700 Received: from 0015-its-ieg02.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.21] [149.8.64.21]) by mclmx.mail.saic.com for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:58:46 -0400 Received: from 0015-its-exbh02.us.saic.com ([10.43.229.22]) by 0015-its-ieg02.mail.saic.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.5.66) with SMTP id M2007031909584630425 for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:58:46 -0500 Received: from 0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com ([10.75.0.188]) by 0015-its-exbh02.us.saic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:58:46 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Debug my propaganda? Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:58:46 -0400 Message-Id: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7C36@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> In-Reply-To: <23dc8c770703190715s3376c420pbfb7c2da5bf0627f@mail.gmail.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lojban-beginners] Re: Debug my propaganda? Thread-Index: AcdqMZWsJ7D7CK7ITgioycNpm0aRywAAfMnQ From: "Turniansky, Michael" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Mar 2007 14:58:46.0501 (UTC) FILETIME=[1831C950:01C76A37] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 4174 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: MICHAEL.A.TURNIANSKY@saic.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners > >> (elided) now is 14 weeks. > > > Ah, so now I see what's troubling you. I don't believe it will, > > since we are talking about the state of the fact here-and-now. But if it > > I'm not convinced that it makes a difference when I say the sentence; > the event I'm describing exists independently of the location (in > space-time) of the observer. Say that in the end, it turns out I > study for 6 months. Then the event of studying has 6 months duration, > whether observed from before, during or after the event itself > (although of course we can't observe its true length until it's over). So you are implying that you can never say (or write) "lo bratu ca carvi" (It's snowing) because at some point in time or space that statement is not true? Nonsense... > Although I did say {le nu}, not {lo nu}, so I'm not bound to be > entirely accurate when describing it. .u'asai > > .ua what about adding a {ze'epu}? Like this: > > lenu mi ze'epu tadni la lojban. jeftu li pavo (You are missing a "cu" (or other sumti/selbri separator) before the jeftu, but otherwise, yes) > > That way, the event I'm describing as having 14 weeks duration is > restricted to the portion of the timeline preceding the here-and-now, > so it's still true even if I continue to study in the future. And > actually, I guess I could just elide the {ze'epu}, as long as I don't > specify any other interval. Yes, that's the point. It might at the very base be ambiguous if you want to split hairs fine enough, but context lets us understand what is meant (I guess that means I'm in the naturalist camp of lojban) > So yes, I now agree with your sentence, > Michael, although I've been round the houses a bit to get to that > point (zo'o). > > I shall have to remember this result, it could save me a lot of > trouble in the future... > --gejyspa