From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Mar 19 11:54:13 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HTMzi-0001h0-0r for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:54:12 -0700 Received: from mclmx2.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.32] ident=[U2FsdGVkX1/947H2LBOxB+KdKy9+KXGue9zOGT4Nz+A=]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HTMzV-0001gb-0D for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:54:09 -0700 Received: from 0015-its-ieg02.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.21] [149.8.64.21]) by mclmx2.mail.saic.com for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:53:42 -0400 Received: from 0015-ITS-EXBH01.us.saic.com ([10.43.229.18]) by 0015-its-ieg02.mail.saic.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.5.66) with SMTP id M2007031913534223012 for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:53:42 -0500 Received: from 0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com ([10.75.0.188]) by 0015-ITS-EXBH01.us.saic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:53:42 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Debug my propaganda? Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:53:42 -0400 Message-Id: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7C3A@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> In-Reply-To: <23dc8c770703190917g1adbc70cqf1edb7cb8435a8aa@mail.gmail.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lojban-beginners] Re: Debug my propaganda? Thread-Index: AcdqQnVXvONTEE82RHCAoUxXI5+AgQAElJdQ From: "Turniansky, Michael" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Mar 2007 18:53:42.0478 (UTC) FILETIME=[EA0D2EE0:01C76A57] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 4179 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: MICHAEL.A.TURNIANSKY@saic.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners > To look at this from another perspective: I have never studied German, > but it could be true for me to say, now, "mi [su'oroi ze'eca] tadni la > dotyban.", because it may yet happen. Of course, it could also be > false, because I may not. We don't know yet, but the statement is > still either true or untrue regardless of whether or not we know. > You, I think, would claim that until I actually do study German, the > statement is simply false. This is the point at which our opinions > diverge, I believe. That is correct. That is where we disagree. > But consider: if this example is false, then so > must be "mi pu'o klama le zarci" and many similar claims. No, at the time it is uttered, from a purely logical POV, we can't know whether or not it is true (though it is certainly one or the other in a non-diverging universe. Very Goedelian.) But from a conversational point of view, we can take this to mean: "mi pacna le nu pu'o klama le zarci kei [da]" or "mi prupla fi le nu pu'o klama le zarci" in which case it is true whether or not it actually occurs. > And this is why I don't want to > say that (in all of time) I study Lojban for 14 weeks, if you see my > point. Yes, I understand your point, I just (as I've said) disagree with it. But just remember, if you have no problems asserting (assuming you are currently an adult), "mi verba" , then you must also have no problems saying (with unknown truth values) "mi ninmu" because you might get a sex change in the future, or even "mi smacu" because you might meet a wizard with an axe to grind,. I think you will agree that in order for conversation to have any meaning whatsoever, such existential claims must be allowed to be evaluated in the context of facts known, and thereby either accepted or rejected. --gejyspa