From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Mar 19 13:37:40 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HTObs-0003uL-6c for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:37:40 -0700 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HTObk-0003tI-39 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:37:39 -0700 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c31so72101nfb for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:37:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=t6W5A2DLwyfoE99U+TFYoCCBqpAx7sPq9isYX8nK2nI1zyqkXyIHwbo6VKD7Yu51gV2hNHLeDPZ8lACiM7b3pJKMwCu8x2TybXtVvVayo+IUovvE/bWiOu/PxkYJMOfl89ga+XNWfDVV8wPRvJuqelnoljqaRqqoYmagx4jQYmM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=o2kaJWSJ24kg2ENRTo9btgANqILj9qry2BtXNtx7UsRGHvcvTwzohAWFHyw+1yJZOSB2oeL0Q1i0IcvoY7f1Phm1aW2YBtYPbfGMwnfoo4OLvWPoWbl7YAh32oeUpzOtpUgyiRAylu7kUIeLChEwBkmOhInngxH+e/sTN1JrvTY= Received: by 10.78.204.7 with SMTP id b7mr2652436hug.1174336650074; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.50.10 with HTTP; Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <23dc8c770703191337x5b359c8ama7f276c396c99a36@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:37:29 +0000 From: "Karl Naylor" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Debug my propaganda? In-Reply-To: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7C3A@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <23dc8c770703190917g1adbc70cqf1edb7cb8435a8aa@mail.gmail.com> <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7C3A@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Score-Int: -25 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 4180 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: karl.org@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 19/03/07, Turniansky, Michael wrote: > > But consider: if this example is false, then so > > must be "mi pu'o klama le zarci" and many similar claims. > conversational point of view, we can take this to mean: "mi pacna le nu > pu'o klama le zarci kei [da]" or "mi prupla fi le nu pu'o klama le > zarci" in which case it is true whether or not it actually occurs. I'd tend to take it that the speaker actually believes the simpler statement true (and may correct it later if appropriate), which is of course acceptable by my definition of truth but not by yours. At least we each seem to have internally consistent mechanisms for interpreting claims :) > But just remember, if you have no problems asserting (assuming you are > currently an adult), "mi verba" , then you must also have no problems > saying (with unknown truth values) "mi ninmu" because you might get a > sex change in the future, or even "mi smacu" because you might meet a No, I'm happy with "mi verba" because I have very good grounds for believing that to be true at some point (specifically, I remember it being true once). I have no such grounds for "mi smacu" or "mi ninmu", although we may just about stretch to allowing "mi nu'o ninmu" if we're being generous. So, for instance, I'd be happy to state "mi ba ca'a sipna" but not "mi ba ca'a zvati la TIMbuktus.". In any case it seems we need an answer from some authority to resolve the question of whether I can truthfully and correctly say "lenu mi tadni la lojban. cu jeftu lipavo". How does the Lojban tense system view events that are partially or fully in the future, or unknown for other reasons?