From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Mar 20 04:50:58 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 20 Mar 2007 04:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HTcrh-0006rs-4k for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 04:50:57 -0700 Received: from mclmx2.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.32] ident=[U2FsdGVkX1+bZD3gZcKikkTxHPMEMBde1Iknh+yDN3o=]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HTcrY-0006rZ-7w for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 04:50:56 -0700 Received: from 0015-its-ieg01.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.21] [149.8.64.21]) by mclmx2.mail.saic.com for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:50:36 -0400 Received: from 0015-its-exbh02.us.saic.com ([10.43.229.22]) by 0015-its-ieg01.mail.saic.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.5.66) with SMTP id M2007032006503618092 for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 06:50:36 -0500 Received: from 0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com ([10.75.0.188]) by 0015-its-exbh02.us.saic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:50:36 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Debug my propaganda? Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:50:36 -0400 Message-Id: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7C3C@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> In-Reply-To: <23dc8c770703191337x5b359c8ama7f276c396c99a36@mail.gmail.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lojban-beginners] Re: Debug my propaganda? Thread-Index: AcdqZr9WkOARb4B6TUCx9/sspGSxlAAd9jGQ From: "Turniansky, Michael" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Mar 2007 11:50:36.0712 (UTC) FILETIME=[F95E7280:01C76AE5] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 4182 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: MICHAEL.A.TURNIANSKY@saic.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners > > > But consider: if this example is false, then so > > > must be "mi pu'o klama le zarci" and many similar claims. > > conversational point of view, we can take this to mean: "mi pacna le nu > > pu'o klama le zarci kei [da]" or "mi prupla fi le nu pu'o klama le > > zarci" in which case it is true whether or not it actually occurs. > > I'd tend to take it that the speaker actually believes the simpler > statement true (and may correct it later if appropriate), which is of > course acceptable by my definition of truth but not by yours. At > least we each seem to have internally consistent mechanisms for > interpreting claims :) I think we really don't have any disagreement over explicitly tensed bridi. We both agree a person may make a claim of a future event because they believe/intend it to be true. (Although as they say in Yiddish, "Man trakht unt Gott lakht" (="loi prenu cu prupla seki'u le nu la cev mi'afra [le nu no'a]"), which is why an Orthodox Jew will not usually talk about a future event (e.g. "I'll see you Friday") without adding the Hebrew "im yirtzah HaShem" (=.ijanai la cev djica le nu go'i") ) Where we appear to disagree is those bridi without any explicit tense ("mu verba", "lenu mi tadni la lojban cu jeftu lipavo", etc.) where I believe it refers to the [asserter's belief of the] state of events at the moment, and you believe it might be true for any set of circumstances. The crux is chap. 10, example 1.1: "1.1) mi klama le zarci I go-to the market. can be understood as: I went to the market. I am going to the market. I have gone to the market. I will go to the market. I continually go to the market. as well as many other possibilities: context resolves which is correct." "Aha!" you say, "It sides with me. It can mean all of those." Yes, but my focus is on the last sentence, context. And when people talk about things without qualifying, I aver, they intend to mean how they perceive the current state of the world. So you can safely state "lenu mi tadni la lojban cu jeftu lipavo" and the listener will understand you that you _have_ studied lojban for 14 weeks, but if you want to make sure he understands you are not yet done, put in the ca'o, as I previously said (and apparently xorxes agrees with), and we can both be satisfied, since it's no longer untensed. --gejsypa