From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Mar 20 08:00:54 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HTfpU-0001V2-Tv for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:00:53 -0700 Received: from mclmx2.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.32] ident=[U2FsdGVkX19AiIvfcHDMtfCIAaFktPjHKqUskX7o00M=]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HTfop-0001UE-H2 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:00:52 -0700 Received: from 0015-its-ieg01.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.21] [149.8.64.21]) by mclmx2.mail.saic.com for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:59:58 -0400 Received: from 0015-ITS-EXBH01.us.saic.com ([10.43.229.18]) by 0015-its-ieg01.mail.saic.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.5.66) with SMTP id M2007032009595830494 for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2007 09:59:58 -0500 Received: from 0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com ([10.75.0.188]) by 0015-ITS-EXBH01.us.saic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:59:58 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: More tense confusion Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:59:58 -0400 Message-Id: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7C40@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> In-Reply-To: <23dc8c770703190954q6b43657ase7de3cc987e7fea2@mail.gmail.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lojban-beginners] More tense confusion Thread-Index: AcdqR5dWZRf4RKY3Qx61AC1n5IKYQgAt02qA From: "Turniansky, Michael" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Mar 2007 14:59:58.0473 (UTC) FILETIME=[6D819790:01C76B00] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 4183 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: MICHAEL.A.TURNIANSKY@saic.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners It's no wonder you're confused. Section 16's equivalences (which you quote) are directly contradicted by section 23's equivalances (X .i TENSE bo Y = TENSE gi X gi Y = Y TENSE le nu X), which flips the TENSEgi/gi sense. There is no errata on this chapter, but I expect the table in sec. 16 is wrong. --gejyspa -----Original Message----- From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of Karl Naylor Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 12:54 PM To: Lojban-beginners Subject: [lojban-beginners] More tense confusion coi rodo The tense system is really confusing me. Taken from the Reference Grammar: --- subordinate: X TENSE le nu Y afterthought coordinate: Y .i+TENSE+bo X forethought coordinate: TENSE+gi X gi Y --- Now, according to that table, the following should be equivalent: a) mi klama le zarci pu le nu mi klama le zdani b) mi klama le zdani .ipubo my klama le zarci c) pugi mi klama le zarci gi mi klama le zdani (c) is identical to: 16.6) pugi mi klama le zarci gi mi klama le zdani [past] I go-to the market [,] I go-to the house. Before I go to the market, I go to the house. However, based on Section 12, I would translate (a) as "I go to the market before I go to the house", which is the opposite of this. So what has gone wrong? By analogy with the behavior of {gu}...{gi}, I'm inclined to think that the table up there is correct, is that right? mu'o mi'e .karl.