From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Apr 12 04:31:22 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 12 Apr 2007 04:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HbxWK-0007EU-UC for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 04:31:21 -0700 Received: from mclmx.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.10]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HbxW1-0007EH-Ag for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 04:31:19 -0700 Received: from 0015-its-ieg01.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.21] [149.8.64.21]) by mclmx.mail.saic.com for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 07:30:38 -0400 Received: from 0015-ITS-EXBH01.us.saic.com ([10.43.229.18]) by 0015-its-ieg01.mail.saic.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.5.66) with SMTP id M2007041207303812235 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 07:30:38 -0400 Received: from 0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com ([10.75.0.188]) by 0015-ITS-EXBH01.us.saic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 12 Apr 2007 07:30:38 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Now what? Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 07:30:38 -0400 Message-Id: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7C90@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> In-Reply-To: <437726.10208.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lojban-beginners] Re: Now what? Thread-Index: Acd8iIBzH7GC81mJTbmMGo3A60Y6ogAaHWqg From: "Turniansky, Michael" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Apr 2007 11:30:38.0714 (UTC) FILETIME=[FECEB5A0:01C77CF5] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 4222 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: MICHAEL.A.TURNIANSKY@saic.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners komfo,amonan has already addressed this, but just to add a concrete example or two. My dog is named "Bear" in English. When I talk him in lojban, I use "la cribe", the-one-called-bear (or when directly addressing him, "doi cribe"). I could have used "la ber", "la crib" "la rib" But the last two would have phonemic value that isn't his (I would not pronounce his name "Shreeb" or "Reeb") I can never say "lo cribe" because no matter what, he is not actually a bear, nor would "le cribe" be right 99% of the time, because he is a dog, not a bear, and it would be hard for me to describe him as a bear (except perhaps metaphorically, after establishing he ate like a bear, or if I saw him in the dark and thought he was a bear, etc.). So I might say to my kids, "ko curmi le nu la cribe cu klama le bartu" ("Let Bear go out") or "ko curmi le nu le gerku cu klama le bartu" ("Let the dog go out") but never "ko curmi le nu le cribe cu klama le bartu" ("Let the bear go out"). With a country, such as kadnygu'e, you can use "la" because the country is NAMED that (in lojban, but you can also use anything the country is named in any other language, but then you would have to use the final consonant, such as la KAnadas, since it would otherwise have a lojbanic meaning or non-meaning (for example "ka na da" would be a an ungrammatical lojbanid construct, because "na" can't precede "da")), but you can also use "lo" or "le" because the country REALLY IS that, and you can certainly DESCRIBE the country as that. But "la" runs into problems because other things may share that name, as in: la mergu'e pu xamgu se zgike ca le prulamdei ("America played-music well yesterday"). Here I'm obviously talking about the band by that name, but if I used "le" instead of "la", I must be talking about the country itself, in some way (say, for example there was a national sing-along in which a great many Americans took part....) Clearer? --gejyspa > -----Original Message----- > From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-beginners- > bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of ANDREW PIEKARSKI > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 6:24 PM > To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org > Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Now what? > > I guess that after this exchange of messages, I'm still not clear. I > thought the context was obvious since I mentioned the country names came > from Wikipedia (I understand I should stay clear of it from now on). > > In Wikipedia, each country has a page describing it. So the typical > sentences would be: > > - China is a country in Asia which.... > - The area of France is...... > - Canada is bordered by... > > So the correct lojbanic names seem to be (Jorge): > > - le or la jugygu'e > - le or la fasygu'e > - le or la kadnygu'e > > But which is preferable? And if it is la, doesn't that mean that the name > is a cmene - and should end with a consonant? > > A separate issue that has come up is the choice of rafsi. Can I use > jugygug instead (Philip), and does that effect the choice of article? > > As a general comment, I'm finding some of the answers difficult to follow. > Examples (complete sentences) would really help. > > - Andrew > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "Turniansky, Michael" > To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 10:56:16 AM > Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Now what? > > > Both Pierre and Jorge are right, of course, about "la". It can name > something that shares the same name the country (e.g. the band America), > and lo would definitely be correct if you wanted to unambiguously state > you are talking about the country. "le" would be useful if, for > example, as a talk show host, you really mean "that portion of the > country that agrees with me, the rest of which isn't really America". I > retract my previous statement. > --gejyspa >