From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Apr 12 08:30:56 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 12 Apr 2007 08:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Hc1GA-0001ny-0w for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 08:30:55 -0700 Received: from mclmx2.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.32] ident=[U2FsdGVkX1/HIRxOFu8qD9PIDXnygDR+KQHAoDzcxPw=]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Hc1Fw-0001nQ-Kz for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 08:30:52 -0700 Received: from 0015-its-ieg02.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.21] [149.8.64.21]) by mclmx2.mail.saic.com for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 11:30:24 -0400 Received: from 0015-ITS-EXBH01.us.saic.com ([10.43.229.18]) by 0015-its-ieg02.mail.saic.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.5.66) with SMTP id M2007041211302422303 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2007 11:30:24 -0400 Received: from 0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com ([10.75.0.188]) by 0015-ITS-EXBH01.us.saic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 12 Apr 2007 11:30:24 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Now what? Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 11:30:24 -0400 Message-Id: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7C94@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> In-Reply-To: <56758.66692.qm@web88006.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lojban-beginners] Re: Now what? Thread-Index: Acd9EQC8St1JERw1RSC1x/wA6ceK2QAAPEJA From: "Turniansky, Michael" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Apr 2007 15:30:24.0447 (UTC) FILETIME=[7D5F5CF0:01C77D17] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 4231 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: MICHAEL.A.TURNIANSKY@saic.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners > But in the real world, unless I am writing about alternate universes, I > have only one specific Canada in mind - so surely it must be "le > kadnygu'e"? First off, emember that both "le" and "lo" do not of and by themselves denote or connote any number (although before xorlo is adopted, lo by itself does means "at least one". "le cribe" can mean "the (thing I desribe as) bear" or "the (things I describe as) bears" and "lo cribe" means "a (thing that really is) bear" or "some (things that really are) bears". Now, take the example of if I was writing thirty years ago. If I said, "loi prenu pe lo dotygu'e cu tavla fo le dotybau" ("The people of (one or both) Germany(s) speak German") it would be true. If I said, "so'e lo prenu pe lo dotygu'e cu kaurpo'esi'opre" ("Most of the people of (one or both) Germany(s) are Communist"), it would STILL be true, even though it is only true of one the Germanys, because I didn't specify I was talking about only West Germany, or both Germanys together. On the other hand, if I said "loi prenu pe le dotygu'e cu kaurpo'esi'opre", now I am specifically limiting the discussion to something I'm referring to as Germany, which, if the rest of my thesis had been about West Germany, would be a patently false statement. So when you use "le" you have to either specifically say what your "le" reefers to, or it has to be clear from context. In the case of Canada, "le" would be fine, since there is only one you could be talking about, unless you specifically mentioned the bizarre context where there was another one. But "lo" would ALSO be fine, since again, there is only one. But suppose you wanted to talk about the current Canadian Parliament. You would use "le kadnygu'e xelfla", but if you wanted to say something one or more Canadian Parliaments in general such as "a Canadian Parliament is made up of people born after 1900", you would use "lo". (You might use "loi", but that would imply (if unqualified) the statement to be true of all Canidan Parliaments, past, present and future, and it clearly is not). > As far as "la kadnygu'e" is concerned, "kadnygu'e" would have to be a > name, but section 4.8 of the CLL says "Names may have almost any form, but > always end in a consonant". So how can it be acceptable? Yes, a name (cmene) itself always ends in a consonant. But "la" is not restricted to cmene. See chapter 6, examples 2.6-2.7 and the surrounding text. --gejyspa (And yes, articles are a slippery subject)